Decoding Clicktivism with Spencer Hooker
Welcome to resiliency the podcast, the place to find stories, strategies, and inspiration on how to embrace change, overcome challenges, and redefine resilience in today's ever evolving world. I am Jen Quater. I'm a global communications expert and CEO of a firm called the SMART Agency, And I am joined today by my cohost, the world's first doctor of resiliency and international business consultant, doctor Kelly Culver. Our show brings together a diverse group of individuals who inspire, educate, and motivate our audience to find their own inner strength in everything from the minutia of everyday life all the way to world altering problems. And now, we want to share what they've learned with you to help everyone build their resilience, overcome hardships, positively impact their communities, and ultimately help the world at large.
Jenn Quader:We are so grateful that each of you has joined us today, and today we have a fantastic guest. We'd like to welcome Mr. Spencer Hooker to Resiliency the podcast. Spencer really caught our attention at the recent TEDx event in Paris. He gave a talk on clicktivism and how it can help change our world, and that really motivated us to learn more about the subject, and you're gonna dive in with us today.
Jenn Quader:Spencer is a social activist. He's currently pursuing his master's degree at the American University of Paris with a focus on global communications, and he specializes in digital cultures and industries. Spencer's interest is in how activists are utilizing social media platforms to forge transnational solidarity, and that is what inspired him to choose this really important path. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the great Spencer Hooker.
Spencer Hooker:Hello. Hello. Happy to be here. Really excited to dive into the topic, and I'm just honored to be invited on the podcast. I remember we talked a little bit about it at the TEDx Talk.
Spencer Hooker:So to see it's coming to fruition, and hear about some of the other panelists, I'm excited to continue to see the podcast come out.
Dr. Kelly Culver:Well, Spencer, we are happy, happy, happy to have you on. And we met you in Paris. And as you may know, this is a global podcast. Jen is in The United States at the moment. I'm in Canada at the moment.
Dr. Kelly Culver:Where in the world are you, Spencer, and what time of day is it?
Spencer Hooker:I'm currently calling in from Paris, across the street from the Eiffel Tower. It's a nice little apartment. The time of day is 12:12AM. So little tired. Had a work day.
Spencer Hooker:Went to see my friends play in a concert. So but we're we're up and alive and ready to go for this podcast. I'm so happy to be here.
Jenn Quader:Spencer, you're giving me midnight resilience. I'm digging it. I love it. You're starting off just right.
Dr. Kelly Culver:So you went to a concert. Tell us about that.
Spencer Hooker:Yeah. My friends, they're, an upcoming band, PSR. They're Parisian, so I'm making my French friends trying to learn the language as I can. And so they were performing tonight, and I wanted to bring my camera. I wanted to, like, help shoot everything, because they're really awesome performers and they're really great people.
Spencer Hooker:So I just took some pictures where I could. But their music itself is just really, like, you feel the energy. So part of the reason why I'm still up right now is because they they gave me some of that energy in their performance. It's like, you know what? I think I could do another three hours.
Spencer Hooker:I think I'll stay up for a little bit longer.
Jenn Quader:That's good energy.
Dr. Kelly Culver:We tend to start our podcast by asking our guests the same question. And so I'd like to ask you, you know the podcast is about resilience, and I'm really curious, and I know Jen is too. What does resiliency mean to you?
Spencer Hooker:It's a good one. It's kinda hard for me to, like, put into words of what resilience means because when I think of resilience, like, there's an imagery that comes to my mind more than, like, a description of what resilience is. So, like, when I think of resilience, back in when I used to live in Maryland, we had this willow tree. And, like, whenever it would storm or, like, there would be a hurricane or whatever, that willow tree would still stand. So, like, through any harshness or any, like, super strong environment that's trying to take down said willow tree, it was always still standing.
Spencer Hooker:So I felt like resilience to me kind of means that, like, ability to withstand whatever's thrown at you.
Jenn Quader:I can see that willow tree, and I and and what a beautiful visual, Spencer. Because the thing about a tree is that not only does it withstand, but it also loses all of its leaves seasonally, and then it regrows seasonally. So there is a a we talk a lot on the podcast about repurposing, regenerating, renewing. And so what a what a beautiful visual to think of this strong tree that's living through these challenges, but that's also renewing itself on a yearly basis. That's that's a really great visual.
Dr. Kelly Culver:And it's protecting its environment too. You know? You think of a willow tree with a beautiful, long, dangly leaves that can come to the ground. You know? There's the old man willow tree kind of interesting thing coming up in my head from The States and from The UK, and it just it's such a protective tree because it it has this, enveloping habitat underneath it.
Dr. Kelly Culver:You have to kinda peek in, but it's there, and it takes care of its own.
Jenn Quader:Kelly, you have such a knack for always bringing it back to collectivism and community, and I think that's so beautiful. And I think it really ties in with Spencer and his talk, and maybe it's a good time to give the audience a little bit of information on that. So as you think of that tree sitting in the forest, that there's a whole environment around that tree, that it has to to withstand. And and something I noticed in your bio, Spencer, is that you're really inspired by transnational solidarity, and by a globalization where people begin to understand each other, which I and I'm interpreting here, but how I see it is that through that gain of understanding, there is a resilience built, both individually and also collectively. So we're gonna kick off and see your TED talk in a minute, but I wonder if through that lens, Spencer, you wanna talk at all about kind of what inspired you to start looking, toward this as, I I believe it's your thesis topic, and then also your TEDx talk.
Jenn Quader:Talk a little bit about what inspired you and brought you to this before we get to dive in and give everybody the good stuff.
Spencer Hooker:You hit it right on the dot. I do love transnational solidarity. Honestly, it was when I read Angeles Davis. It was like how to build a found the foundations of a movement. And she talks so in-depth about, like, the importance of, like, not just excluding one group or another group because there's so many layers to everything.
Spencer Hooker:And during the civil rights movements, like, we see a lot of, like, black women having to choose between the feminist movement or the black Panther movement of like, which one do I hold, higher for myself? And so I think that along with the Internet's development and with social media and everything is that we started to understand that there's nuances with everybody. So you're not just a black person. You're not just a woman. You're not just a queer person.
Spencer Hooker:All of these things are who you are, that you hold internally. And so we need to start understanding how can we form these bonds, not just within The United States as well, but across the globe. How can someone in France understand the Black Lives Matter movement? The same way, how can someone in China understand the Me Too movement? And how can that go global?
Spencer Hooker:It's a very beautiful thing that I think that is kinda looked down upon on social media. The more that we as as social media develops is that we don't respect the the transnational solidarity that's coming along with it. We're we're being more connected than ever to talk about these issues and to support each other in anything that's coming up.
Jenn Quader:I love what you said more connected than ever, Spencer, because that's what I think makes your talk so important for right now. Because as you're talking about this, you know, these people who are having to choose who's my group. You know? Do I choose the feminist movement? Do I choose the other?
Jenn Quader:You know? Or do who am I within this? Never before in history have we had access to so many groups, to so many movements, to so many things. And so I think, that really speaks to why now is the time to look at social media through this lens of resiliency, which I think you did in such a beautiful way, in the TED Talk. And I think it's it's a good clue in for our listeners to see how this can apply in your life because Spencer's talking about some big social issues.
Jenn Quader:But when you look through that, if you can listen to this TED Talk that we're about to play for you, and really look for those nuggets that speak to your own experience with social media. Because I can say, being someone in my 40s, I've read a lot about the younger generation and how deeply they have been impacted. Their whole development of character and emotion has been impacted by living on social media. So what better place to start to build resilience than this tool that connects us all? So with that, I think if I may, Spencer, I'd love to turn us over, let the audience just listen to this beautiful, wonderful TED Talk you gave, and then after that, we will dive in and get really deep into more of this, discussion.
Jenn Quader:Does that sound good?
Spencer Hooker:Sounds great. Thank you very much.
Jenn Quader:Please give a listen to mister Spencer Hooker's TEDx talk.
Spencer Hooker:Construction workers use various tools while building. It's impossible to build a house with just one tool because every tool is suited for different tasks and situations. Now I want you to imagine what tools activists might use during a social movement. They might garner signatures for a petition, or take part in demonstration, or boycott businesses. Every generation of activists finds ways to make their voice heard, and with every generation of activists comes new technologies.
Spencer Hooker:During the progressive era, photography was used to document the wrongful conditions of child labor. During the civil rights movement, activists like Martin Luther King Junior and Malcolm x used TV to spread their message across The United States. And in The United States and in our generation, social media has been used to establish transnational solidarity. Clicktivism has found a way to be resilient when traditional news avoids covering controversial topics or misrepresenting a movement. Online activism or clicktivism is slowly becoming the preferred method of political expression for Gen z, but the effectiveness of any tool lies in understanding the capabilities and limitations.
Spencer Hooker:Good morning, AUP community. I'm Spencer Hooker, your local community activist. And like many of you, I use social media more than I'd like to admit. Today, I hope to teach you about the importance of clicktivism and how to properly use it. While clicktivism can be effective at fostering conversations and garnering support and covering underreported issues, it can also silence the voices we aim to amplify or divert attention away from the messages we hope to spread.
Spencer Hooker:My goal for today is to is for you to all walk away with a better understanding of what clicktivism is, how clicktivism has been used in the past, how to avoid falling into the form of clicktivism, and how to properly deploy clicktivism tactics in the future. To begin, let's define clicktivism. Clicktivism is the use of social media, social buttons, and similar low threshold activities. It arrived in the early nineties with activists engaging in emailing masses to educate and mobilize on social issues, but it wasn't until the rise of social media that we saw widespread participation in clicktivism. I'm fairly certain that everyone in this room has used clicktivism in some way.
Spencer Hooker:You just might not have known it. There are five key features to clicktivism. One, it's a political act situated in the digital sphere, like using Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook. Two, it's an impromptu response to an existing political object. Actions like liking, sharing, and retweeting can happen within seconds.
Spencer Hooker:Three, the act is noncommittal. It requires no further commitments to the campaign following the initial actions. Four, it draws on no specialized knowledge. And five, the actions are easily replicated by the general public. Clicktivism can be more loosely defined as an impulsive and noncommittal online political response, which is easy replicated and requires no specialized knowledge.
Spencer Hooker:This seems like a very harsh description for someone giving a TED Talk on the subject, but many movements in the twenty first century have actually started through clicktivism because it was easily accessible and helped mobilize people. The idea of covering underreported issues started with Iran citizens. The hashtag CNN failed and hashtag Iran election went hand in hand by Twitter users as they documented how CNN and other major news corporations failed to report on a people's uprising. Instead of covering an a revolt of people against the unjust system, CNN was running stories on the disappearance of Analog Television and the bankruptcy of Six Flags amusement park. CNN prioritized local, business oriented stories over significant international event with broader social and political implications.
Spencer Hooker:At the same time, BBC correspondents were being arrested while covering mass protests. ABC News correspondent, Jim Sciuto, reported his equipment being confiscated during one of these protests. But this is where clicktivism resilience takes full effect. Sciuto used his cell phone to capture the police violence directed towards protesters, posting live updates on Twitter. Within a few weeks, Shudo and other foreign journalists were rounded up and sent home.
Spencer Hooker:Some journalists were imprisoned indefinitely. But there was a shift in the global media ecology as Iranian citizens continued posting videos and images online. Companies like CNN, The New York Times, The Guardian, and The LA Times created news sections on their websites for amateur videos from the Iranian citizens. For the first time in collectivism history, major news corporations relied on tweets and online submissions to get information about what's happening. The longest click to this campaign that we've seen in our generation has been the Black Lives Matter movement.
Spencer Hooker:It started as a hashtag, but has since become a broader signifier of ideas, feelings, and movement. The hashtag no longer just stands for the death of Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown, who it was originally intended for, but instead signifies a recognition of past and future black victims of police brutality. The introduction of the Internet has restructured the possibilities for the black community to challenge racist narratives in the mainstream media. Instead of having to produce and disseminate information for a small set of journalists, activists can now just use social media to get their message across to the public sphere. Activists no longer have to appeal directly to print and news media.
Spencer Hooker:They can distribute their messages more broadly. When stories like George Floyd and Breonna Taylor were picked up by major networks in 2020, activists formed counter network publics to drive anti racist narratives into the mainstream conversation. Similar to the historically offline black public sphere, this act of resilience ensured the reframing of dominant discourse in the media and advanced racial justice. Hashtags on Twitter serve as a banner, which people could share stories, affirm experiences, and challenge racist mainstream discourse. We see hashtags used similarly with the hashtag me too movement, which started as a phrase on Myspace but gained significant traction when it was used as a hashtag in 2017.
Spencer Hooker:Hashtag Me Too was founded by Tarana Burke to support survivors of sexual violence. But following the sexual assault allegations of Harvey Weinstein, the movement gained significant virality. In China, Hashtag Me Too was banned on social media platforms because it was seen as a Western idea. But netizens used hashtag Rice Bunny, which translates to sound like Me too. While the West focused discussion on Hollywood and workplace sexual harassment, China's Me too movement centered around higher education harassment with prominent professors targeting students.
Spencer Hooker:In France, they use hashtag, which translates to speak on your pig. Through connected online action that moved to physical demonstration, France started to take sexual harassment more seriously, and a law was passed in 2019 that punishes sexual harassment in the street with fines of up to €750 Netizens around the world continue to participate in the movement today, and discussions surrounding cultural norms are being had in the media. Even though I just listed multiple ways clicktivism has been used effectively, scholars have been highly critical over the use of clicktivism. Its conception was in the late twentieth century, and some have referred to it as slacktivism, armchair activism, or or hashtag activism. I personally think that critics underestimate and over criticize the importance of clicktivism.
Spencer Hooker:This tool, like any other tool, has weaknesses. But once we understand these weaknesses, we begin to use it more effectively. So what are the criticisms of collectivism? First, people tend to replace physical and or financial participation with digital participation. Instead of attending a protest or boycotting a business, clicktivists will use their digital voice, which is helpful for spreading messages like where a protest will take place or what business to boycott.
Spencer Hooker:But there needs to be more substance to their actions. Change won't come from just spreading messages, it comes from undertaking those messages. It comes from the disruption. Another notable limitation of collectivism is misinformation. Misinformation travels far and wide on social media.
Spencer Hooker:Researchers from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology found that fake stories were 70% more likely to be retweeted on Twitter and that false news traveled to about 1,500 people six times faster. The longer we scroll, the less critical we become of what we're reading and sometimes we might share things that align with what we believe in but misalign with the truth. Finally, the performness of online clicktivism. On the screen behind me, you can see what's posted by 28,000,000 people on BlackoutTuesday. The hashtag was created by two black women in Atlanta calling on only black musicians to stop producing and promoting music for one day, demanding that people take a break from black entertainment to educate themselves on the complexities of race in America.
Spencer Hooker:Now I want you all to just take a second and analyze what you're seeing. What information is this screen communicating to you? What does it convey? The answer is nothing. That's because the message was misconstrued and people took it as an opportunity to show solidarity for Black Lives Matter, only posting a black square.
Spencer Hooker:The people who posted under BlackoutTuesday also used the hashtags BLM and BlackLivesMatter which clutter these feeds as well. These posts effectively silence activists using BLM to share information and resources. Another classic case of the repercussions of per performiveness of online activism is the hashtag stop Kony twenty twelve movement. This movement began with a short documentary of the Ugandan cult leader and founder of the Lord's Resistance Army, Joseph Kony. In attempt to highlight his crimes to a global audience, they used the hashtag stop Kony, but this campaign failed in my eyes.
Spencer Hooker:At a time when Uganda was becoming a top destination spot to visit, people started associating the country with warlords and child soldiers. The documentary also asked viewers to purchase a $30 kit as a donation to their charity, Invisible Children. This included stickers, posters, and yard signs. But the donations failed to make it to the charity as they used that money to continue furthering the campaign across The United States. The campaign fell short of any meaningful change due to its performative nature.
Spencer Hooker:People didn't do anything after using the hashtag stopcony or liking the short film on YouTube. The donations would have been helpful, but they failed to make it to any of the families that needed it. Stereotypes about both Africa and Uganda only worsened after this campaign, and the online discussion didn't amplify any Ugandan voices. So how do we effectively use this new tool? How do we avoid falling into the trap of performative clicktivism?
Spencer Hooker:First and foremost, try to understand the roots of a movement. Move beyond just what you learn on social media. Clicktivists tend to only understand the surface level of issues from social media posts. So using what you learn through social media to better understand what's happening will help ensure you practice what you preach. Second, don't let clicktivism be your only form of activism.
Spencer Hooker:Like I said at the start of the speech, a construction worker can't build a house with one tool, and a movement can't accomplish their goal only using one form of activism. We still need to sign petitions, we still need to meet other activists, and we still need to hit the streets and voice our opinions. Don't stop at clicktivism because it's the easiest form of activism. I believe at the start of a movement, clickbism could be extremely effective at spreading a message and building community. But the longer conversations stay in the digital world with no physical world action, it loses validity.
Spencer Hooker:And third, amplify voices that aren't being heard. Find content creators who are part of the affected community and help them spread their message to your followers. During the twenty twenty Black Lives Matter protest, videos of peaceful protesters were broken up by police with tear gas and riot shields, which help people see firsthand what's happening in the streets. Currently in Palestine, Independent Journalists, undeterred by traditional media limitations, are opting to use social media to share their realities. So to quickly summarize everything, while I believe clicktivism has a place in the future of activism, we can't solely rely on it to make change.
Spencer Hooker:We still need people to boycott businesses, attend protests, and donate to grassroot organizations. Clicktivism is also still a relatively new concept, so if you don't see yourself using in the future or you don't fully understand it, don't sweat it. I hope this talk has helped show the resilience of clicktivism and open your imagination to wielding it, and I wanna end on one more note. While social media is fast and always changing, social change is slow, and it takes a lot of time. Thank you all for coming to my TED Talk.
Dr. Kelly Culver:Spencer, that was fantastic. I I mean, I'm just excite I'm just as excited seeing that the second time around as I was the first time. What we take from it, what we learn from, you know, your your vision and your history around collectivism and and some of the key lessons. It's I really liked the you know, collectivism is fast, but change is slow. And that's the thing about resilience and resiliency.
Dr. Kelly Culver:It's a long game. It's a long term process. You know, there's nothing politically expedient about becoming resilient. You have to put your foot in front of the other all the time, and it's a your end game is a long game. But more importantly, the question I have for you, the first one is, it's been a couple of months now since you gave that TED Talk.
Dr. Kelly Culver:How has this changed your life?
Spencer Hooker:I feel like from doing all the research on clicktivism, it's been interesting to continue seeing the social media usage around Palestine right now. So most recently, seeing the all eyes on Rafa, that's been really interesting to see because it's very similar to the hashtag blackout Tuesday in the sense that what people were reposting for the all eyes on Rafa wasn't true images of what's happening in Rafa and wasn't really communicating any real information about what's happening in Rafa. What instead was being opted to be used was an AI generated photo to be used with the hashtag all eyes. And so it's it was interesting to see that, like, almost a repeat of history kinda happening, but, like, instead of it just being, like, this blank screen or, like, this screen of no information of what's happening in the area that you want to speak on is now an artificial intelligent photo version of that event. So it's it was interesting to see that, like, as these movements are continuing, we're still falling into, like, the same pitfalls of the performative activism aspect of social media.
Jenn Quader:I'd love to jump in here because I was one of the dodo heads that posted the Black Lives Matter, Black Square, and I really thought I was doing something, man. I was like, I'm in on this. I'm supporting. And so it was really beautiful to hear your talk as because I had read later that that didn't turn out so well, but hearing your talk and really taking the ownership myself of, you know, I helped clutter that feed, and and and what did I do to really advance? And so I I wanna ask that as you turn it to this really, really heated situation over here and this idea of all eyes on Rafa.
Jenn Quader:One of the things you talk about in your, in your TEDx is to get deeper into the roots and really understand things. And I'd say that that situation over there is one of the prime examples of a place that I have trouble knowing where to start. Where do you go to find that deeper root? Can you address that in a way that might help our listeners who are looking for ways to discern, the a better way to be activists?
Spencer Hooker:What helped me get a better understanding of what's happening is following, Instagram accounts like PSL nation. There's this one Instagram account that gives you really good book recommendations about pre Israel showing up and, like, the, occupation of Palestine to where they are today where it's slowly been, like, losing more and more land over time. But I will find that real quick.
Jenn Quader:No. You you know what? Send it to us after. We'll put it in the show notes. But I think those those are great.
Jenn Quader:It's great for us when we can share some resources with our listeners. And it sounds like really what you're saying is maybe take a little more time. So, maybe I'm going through fast, and I think I'd like to support my friend who put this up, and so I'm gonna share this. But maybe if I slow down, order a book instead, read it and understand, and then figure out how I might be an activist. Is that is that am I taking that in a way that you would say that leads to some resilience?
Spencer Hooker:That is what I would say is spot on, to find some resilience with the movement. Social media, as we've said, is such a fast environment that you end up you scroll for maybe an hour, maybe thirty minutes. But in that in those thirty, thirty minutes to an hour, you digest so much information that if you just take a second to, like, reflect on what you're about to repost or, like, think about what you're what you're reading, then it helps in the the long run of finding your resilience within a movement because you end up when you just end up scrolling for hours, you just participate in trends. But when you take the time to read a full book for, like, that week for a few days, and you start to understand, like, why should I really care about this? Then it becomes more than just a trend, but you care about the movement.
Jenn Quader:And I'm gonna speak, and then I know Doctor. Kelly's probably got a good question hanging out, but I I I just want to say I think that what you're speaking to, Doctor. Kelly and I often talk about, and she she sees it as resilience at the personal level, at the company level, at the country level. And what you're talking about is resilience at the movement level. And what I'm hearing in this is that it's not just you yourself will become more resilient because you will better understand what it is you're being an activist for and with, but it also actually supports the resilience of the movement.
Jenn Quader:If you want the movement to succeed, you have to understand it more deeply, and that is what allows us to not go off the rails, like the the Kony example you gave, and do kind of performative, you know, only for commercial gain. That's not the kind of stuff that builds true resilience and brings those kind of country level solutions.
Dr. Kelly Culver:I think it also provides some clarity. You know, Jen, you've encapsulated it really, really well. It provides clarity for people on what's the path, and what does the path look like? You said something that really struck me in your TED Talk, and it was around aligning with what we believe but misaligning with what is the truth. And that statement really struck me because we've been grappling, you know, when we were preparing for this, for this podcast.
Dr. Kelly Culver:And some of the questions that we wanted to ask you. One of them was, should social platforms be doing more to defend people from fake news so that we don't hit that forward, that like, that whatever we happen to engage in in a way that's at a surface level because I think you're talking about going deeper. So how would you help us with that, Spencer?
Spencer Hooker:On an individual level, what we can do is, like I said, kinda like slow down with your social media consumption, really process some of the news that you're taking in through social media. Because when you're scrolling for so long, you just become so how do you say? Baby brand? It's like you just end up you just end up accepting almost so much information because it's hard for you to process just that amount, that vast amount of information, such a short amount of time. And so, you know, look at who's reposting that information.
Spencer Hooker:And where's that information is coming from. If it's coming from the New York Times, still keep your your wits about you. But if it's coming from an account like spiritual world w w, maybe we don't trust this source. Maybe this isn't a trustworthy source that we should take in as, like, factual information. Another thing is, like, don't be afraid to, like, get off the app and then fact check it yourself.
Spencer Hooker:If you see some information that just doesn't seem right with you, that isn't sitting right with you, it's okay to consult Google and just check with a few other sources. I had a friend recently talk to me about they said Republicans passed a PURGE Act in The United States. And I was like, does that sound like a thing that they would do? I was like, let's let's just Google it real quick, and maybe we'll find some more information. And of course it was, it was in snoops.
Spencer Hooker:It's an AFP fact check. There's plenty of resources out there that you can fact check on your own real quick. That will they'll provide you with certified fact checkers that will tell you if it's factual or not, and they can go down to who who might have been the person to spread this misinformation. But, like, just slow down your social media usage. Just take a second to breathe.
Spencer Hooker:I think what companies should be doing to be held more accountable is employing more fact checkers on their teams to help debunk this information and taking down this misinformation. Most recently with the European elections, we saw a lot more far right politicians take power. And a part of that problem is that there was so much misinformation circulating at the same time that the fact checkers were overwhelmed. They couldn't debunk everything. They believe that Russian bots had participated in this by sending in fake information for these fact checkers to disprove.
Spencer Hooker:So there's an overwhelming amount of disinformation out there, and not every fact checker is gonna be able to get there. But if we start holding these, social media companies accountables for what these count what these accounts are reposting and maybe saying like, oh, for every thousand users, maybe employ like one fact checker, then we can start debunking these things without having to rely on all these other companies, these nonpartisan, or nonprofit organizations to do all the the the heavy lifting.
Jenn Quader:Spencer, you're you're you're just speaking such a cool language to me because, you know, and your world is more the political side and the activism side, and my world's a little more the business side. But I one thing that's really coming to my mind as you talk about employing more fact checkers and giving is what a beautiful way to talk about the resiliency of the work force. Right? Because everyone's afraid. AI is coming for our jobs.
Jenn Quader:It's gonna design everything. It's gonna write everything. There's all this narrative. But the truth is, with AI comes the need for more human discernment. That is, it's necessary.
Jenn Quader:I mean, one great example is Google just launched their AI tool, and within a matter of days, it was telling people to put glue on pizza. I don't know if you guys saw this, but I mean, there were all sorts of weird information things. And so I think it's such an interesting point you bring, Spencer, that through this technology, through this digital misinformation, may actually come out of it a new way to use the human job and the human mind, which is learning a new level of discernment that can support companies and support other people in knowing what is real and what is fake. What would you call that job? What would your title be?
Spencer Hooker:A real person.
Jenn Quader:I wanna call call them the baby brain the baby brain breaker, because you said when you scroll, you turn into baby brain. So these are the baby brain breakers.
Dr. Kelly Culver:Yeah. In Canada, we call it ground truthing.
Jenn Quader:I love that. Ground truthing. Yeah. Ground truthing. Tell us about that, Kelley.
Jenn Quader:What does that mean, and where did that come from?
Dr. Kelly Culver:So ground truthing is the concept is you have to bring something back to the ground. Is it real? So there's truth behind what you can bring back to the ground. So in fact, checking or, you know, is it fake or is it not? We want to ground truth something as being veritable, truthful.
Jenn Quader:That just reminded me of Spencer saying that one of his other tips beyond finding out, you know, go deeper, find out find out what it is, but also go do something physical. Go get there. Don't just click, but, you know, we refer to it as maybe armchair activism, but actually do it. And boy, what a way to ground truth is to show up and find out if these are actually your people.
Dr. Kelly Culver:And you know, it's challenging because you've talked about The clicktivism movement, you said, started in the 1990s, which isn't really that long ago. I mean, it might seem a long time for you, but it doesn't seem that long for me, probably not for Jen. It's not that long ago. And we know things change so fast. So especially in social media, these social media landscapes are changing so rapidly.
Dr. Kelly Culver:So how do we keep up with them? And and and how do we navigate that fast change to know that we're, you know, we're swimming in the right stream?
Spencer Hooker:Yeah. I mean, definitely keep up with the terms and service updates. I know that it's, like, a lot of information on just, like, each slide, but there's sometimes the the news will help break down what these terms and services are telling you. So, like and one of the newest Instagram updates, it's kinda weird because it's during a, election year as well. It automatically turns off using political content of people who you don't already follow, which is not a great thing for an election year as well.
Spencer Hooker:That up. Is that you don't
Jenn Quader:That's that's fascinating. I mean, that like, way to sway people to what they're already in, way to not show any objectivity.
Spencer Hooker:Yeah. And we talk so much about how echo chambers are super dangerous, how it played a a major role in the twenty sixteen elections. So for Instagram to roll out this new feature that almost puts people in their own echo chambers of them saying, like, I don't wanna see any political content of anything that I don't agree with. There's I'm not gonna say I love seeing a lot of political content of things I don't agree with, but I think it does help me paint a fuller picture for what I'm seeing in the world. And so if you have that turned on, you know, you need to turn that off.
Spencer Hooker:You need to read the terms and conditions that tells you that. You need to check-in with the news sources that are saying, hey, just so you know, like in the future, this is coming up. If you want to continue seeing some of our news feeds, like, you're not to turn this off. But, like, just try to keep up with some of the terms and conditions because they kinda roll these things out without telling you what they've rolled out. So, like, back in Black Lives Matter, like, the shadow banning and some of the other ways to, like, silence, activist accounts, A lot of activists didn't realize that this thing was just being rolled out on people.
Spencer Hooker:It was just kind of something that was like, oh, I'm getting a lot less views right now. I'm getting a lot less followers. I don't really understand what's happening. And I'm not even a % sure if that's still in the terms and conditions. But by keeping up with some of the other news, like, small, grassroot news organizations that I do follow, I'm able to understand what are some of the changes coming to these social medias, and how can I brace for them as someone who's reposting a lot of political content?
Jenn Quader:I kinda have to ask the question that must be asked, which is, is there anything coming that you're aware of? Is there anything about to change or any or any changes on the horizon that our audience might want to know about in that sphere?
Spencer Hooker:The only thing I could think of right now is the TikTok ban. I'm kinda disappointed in it as, like, a lot of Gen Zs using it both as, like, a very fun app as, like, a way to connect with people, not just in The United States, but, like, abroad. Like, I can culturally find someone who has a very similar sense of humor to me who has never lived in The United States. I can form a connection. I can form a transnational solidarity with this person of, like, oh, wow.
Spencer Hooker:This is really interesting that we both wanna enjoy this song. We both know this dance. We both know how to do x, y, and z. And so to see it being banned in The United States is kinda disappointing because it's gonna separate us. I I think we're really close to, social media app where people are really starting to, like, fully flush out both fun content and political content.
Spencer Hooker:And to see it be banned the same time that Instagram is also starting to silence more political content is like, oh, this is a little worrying that the social media apps where a lot of clicktivism and activism are starting to take form and, like, find their foundation are now being silenced again. And I'm not moving to Twitter again anytime soon. So I feel kinda lost right now. It's like I don't really wanna continue staying on Instagram where I know that I'm gonna be silenced. There's a lot more censorship right now around my political content.
Spencer Hooker:I can't really stay on TikTok because TikTok is most likely gonna be banned in the next few months to the year. So where do I go? Where can I repost a lot of my information that will connect to a transnational community?
Dr. Kelly Culver:That is a conundrum, what you raise. And, you know, I work all around the world as well. And so when you you look at the world through Globalize, you see that we are so much more similar than we are different, although people don't wanna believe that. And the way you can see how similar we are are through using things like Instagram and TikTok. The cynic in me will say that will predict that there won't ban, an ultimate ban, because the company is too valuable.
Dr. Kelly Culver:The algorithm someone will find a way around that, and it will it will keep its presence. It will just you know, there there there are there are geopolitical issues that have to get worked out. But I'm not going to talk about bedding, because bedding is not a good thing to do. But if I were looking through my crystal ball, I would say it's still going to be around.
Jenn Quader:I'm going to go find a little table I can bet on that. Excuse me, Doctor. C, she told me that y'all are not gonna ban TikTok. I'm in.
Dr. Kelly Culver:I don't think so. Too much money. Too much money.
Jenn Quader:She said gamble away, that's what I heard.
Dr. Kelly Culver:Oh, man, I'm gonna get in trouble now.
Spencer Hooker:Thank you, Doctor.
Jenn Quader:C. Doctor. C, doctor of resilience and pusher of gambling. Not really.
Dr. Kelly Culver:Oh, Oh, no.
Jenn Quader:You know what? I think I side with you, Doctor. Kelly, which is I suspect that we won't see a full ban because I think that there's too much commercial value in it. And there's so many things that are I mean, they've got their TikTok creator program. They have industrial property that they've that they've gone into.
Jenn Quader:I mean, there there's been a tremendous amount of investment. It'll affect more than just the digital landscape. But that brings me to something that I think is really important, and it ties back to your talk, Spencer, and and it really ties to a very important thing you brought up when you talked about the Instagram terms and conditions, and that is the concept of an echo chamber. The concept of a place where I say what I believe and only I and I only listen to people who believe what I believe, and that is dangerous. And as you mentioned, we know that.
Jenn Quader:So what I want to speak to for a minute, because that echo chamber is something I think our listeners could really think about. Some of our listeners will be able to take some of these actionable tips about where to find you know, where to determine if information is misinformation, etcetera. Some of them may not read the terms and service updates on the on the social media, but some of our listeners might run companies or be leaders of teams or have opportunities in their real life outside of that to maybe recognize and fight against an echo chamber. I wonder if, you know, pulling it off the digital sphere, if you could speak to that in general, to how might someone who is seeking to build something more diverse, more open, more honest, you know, how can an activist do that outside of these places that are being policed by Instagram, TikTok, and the like? What else can be done, to build that resilience today?
Spencer Hooker:I think the offline action aspect of everything, you have to push yourself to to go outside and meet the other people. I kinda talk about this in the TED talk itself, but what's so great about online activism is that it helps you find your communities. It helps you find the people who think like you, who speak like you, who might have the same ideas as you. But it's not until you meet those people in person, like, maybe participate in a protest that we can really start fleshing out what are the differences that we have as well, and how can we build upon that. I think in general, though, when you're finding yourself an echo chamber and you wanna seek yourself to push yourself outside of it, you have to go outside your comfort zone.
Spencer Hooker:And it's a little uncomfortable going outside your comfort zone, but that's the only way that you're gonna be able to, you know, find the voices that you don't know. And so I implore anyone who's looking to to push themselves outside of the set echo chambers is to have conversations with people who you don't normally have a conversation with. Ask them about the struggles that they're facing that you might not have known about. And five times out of 10, most likely, they're gonna be very open to talk about it and, like, want to want you to understand what's going on. That's not to say, like, oh, press them about it and, like, have them educate you.
Spencer Hooker:But ask them just simple softball questions. And if you want more information, then seek more information. But don't just fall into the echo chamber. And if you do, let's just try to get out of it. But also don't just keep yourself with one person to to train you on everything.
Spencer Hooker:Don't don't employ them to to now teach you, because you want to be better. Take that responsibility for yourself as well to understand the struggles that they're going through and move past that.
Dr. Kelly Culver:It also requires a bit of bravery, don't you think? Bravery and personal courage to step outside that comfort zone of the box that I may have put myself in so that I can hear another point of view, another perspective. There's perception and there's perspective. They're not the same thing. And I think we fall in a trap when we think that my perception is your perspective.
Dr. Kelly Culver:They aren't. And I think you have to be really self aware to know that, I need to step outside this space, and I need to listen with my eyes and hear with my ears what someone else is saying.
Jenn Quader:The power of the physical.
Spencer Hooker:That's beautifully said. That's something I had not heard before is the perspective versus perception. But the way that you've just put that has opened my eyes to a new way to think about it.
Dr. Kelly Culver:Well, when you talk about you know, at the very beginning when we started talking with you and you were describing, you know, people having women in particular, having to make a choice on, am I embracing feminism, or am I embracing black lives? Because I'm both of those things. And it was it was almost like you're denying that person the whole fabric of who she is. So perception and perspective are about a fabric, you know, and we weave carefully threads together to create a fabric. And and and the fabric is a community, a fabric is a movement, and a fabric is you as a person.
Dr. Kelly Culver:And we have to be careful on how we thread the needle.
Jenn Quader:You're giving me all the good feelings, Doctor. Kelly. You are. I mean, it's so true because one of the hardest things, I think, in a world of digital and social media is knowing where you fit, because you're seeing you are bombarded by all the groups and all the trends and all the styles and all the suggestions and all the recommended and the more like this, and it's all that you know, Kelly speaks about this in her TEDx, the pings and pops and poops, you know, of of everything. And I think that that this is where, you know, our challenge as of 2024, resiliency the podcast, is find what's real.
Jenn Quader:Find the real fabric of who we are. You know, find that I can be a woman in business, and also a wife, and also a friend, and I can belong to these different groups as long as I actively get out of my own echo chamber. And I like what you said, Spencer, about putting yourself in the discomfort. I think that that's so important. I think there are so many people.
Jenn Quader:I'm one of those people who, growing up, I would say, Oh, I don't see color. I learned that's not how you get it. That's how you stay in an echo chamber, right? And so so so it's it's pushing yourself out and having those conversations, that's just really important. And I I love what you're talking about, Kelly, which is diving into that fabric of yourself and of your community by getting physical.
Jenn Quader:Show up at the event. Meet the meet the person who's organizing it. Understand what you're standing for. That's what I'm taking from it. Spencer, what an inspiration you are.
Jenn Quader:I'm I'm flabbergasted by your intellect. I'm amazed at you reading all the terms and services of all agreements of all the social media. I'm gonna probably
Dr. Kelly Culver:call you weekly
Jenn Quader:just to check-in on that.
Spencer Hooker:I'll do some social media posts. I'll I'll I'll I'll wait. I'm like, look,
Jenn Quader:you need to start a podcast, my friend, because, because because I will listen and I will learn. But we will certainly put in, all of the resources you've mentioned, into the show notes. But I want to throw it to Doctor. Kelly Culver for our last little bit of fun that we like to have here at the Resiliency the Podcast.
Dr. Kelly Culver:We begin our podcast by asking you, what does resiliency mean to you? And we end it with rapid fire questions. So are you ready?
Spencer Hooker:I'm ready.
Dr. Kelly Culver:What's your favorite movie or TV show that makes you feel resilient?
Spencer Hooker:Right now, it's been Jujutsu Kaisen. It's an anime. Great, great show.
Dr. Kelly Culver:What's your favorite song that makes you feel happy and resilient?
Spencer Hooker:Alright by Kendrick Lamar.
Dr. Kelly Culver:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's the last thing that made you laugh?
Spencer Hooker:My coworkers. They're extremely funny to me.
Dr. Kelly Culver:Oh, my word. And what is one question you'd like to leave for a future guest on our show?
Spencer Hooker:What mantra helps you get through the day?
Dr. Kelly Culver:Oh, that's a good one. I love it.
Jenn Quader:Fenzer, what an honor it has been to have you. Thank you for being up between the midnight and one a. M. Hour in Paris, just to give us all this amazing information. We're so, so grateful.
Jenn Quader:Could you please tell our listeners if they would like to follow you and learn a little bit more about what you stand for? Where can they find you in the digital world?
Spencer Hooker:So I have a LinkedIn, Spencer Steinhooker. You can see me on there. I work at WorldCrunch as well. So if you Google me or search me up on there, you'll see more articles that I've written in the past. On Instagram, spence underscore the underscore ninja.
Spencer Hooker:That's my personal Instagram. That's why I repost a lot of Instagram news. So if you're interested to to not read the terms and conditions, but you just wanna see what's happening in the world, you can see it there. And then I have a actually, just follow my my job's Twitter, WorldCrunch at WorldCrunch on Twitter. Great spot to see where the world what's happening in the world's world.
Jenn Quader:Love it. Love it. And really love Spence the Ninja. I'm definitely following there, but I love that idea of WorldCrunch as well. And, listeners, we will put all those links into the show notes for you.
Jenn Quader:Please check it out. You can learn a ton from Spencer. As you can tell, he is continuing to advance his, foothold in the digital cultural sphere, and he certainly is a thought leader in his own right. Spencer, we're so grateful to have had you. To all of our listeners, thank you so much for being here with us.
Jenn Quader:We are so grateful to you. We ask that if you enjoyed today's episode and wanna learn more about resilience, please like and subscribe to the show. You can find us on all the podcast platforms, Spotify, Apple, YouTube, etcetera. You can also find us online at resiliencythepodcast.com, and throughout all of your social media pages. Find us, like us, interact with us.
Jenn Quader:This is the place to find stories, strategies, and inspiration on embracing change, overcoming challenges, and redefining resilience in our rapidly changing world. You can find me, Jen Quater, at at jenquater across all social media and also online at jenquater.com, and our illustrious, fabulous cohost, doctor Kelly Culver, you can find her at culvergroup.ca. Again, that's .ca because that is our Canada lady right there. You can also find her online at doctorkellyculver.com and also at doctor kellyculver on both LinkedIn and Instagram. And with that, again, thank you, Spencer.
Jenn Quader:Thank you, audience. We wish you love. We wish you resilience. We wish you strength, and we look forward to seeing you back here at the next episode of Resiliency The Podcast.
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