Resiliency The Podcast

Jenn Quader (03:39.479)
Welcome to Resiliency, the podcast. Today we have a very powerful episode for you. And I want to start by saying that this episode will include many triggers. We do not recommend that younger children tune in due to the graphic nature of what we'll be discussing. But this is a story that must be told, and it's a discussion that needs to be had right now.

Now with that, want to introduce to you today's guest. Now today's guest is what we would call an everyday hero. And she appeared for us in a place that you don't really think about a hero appearing, and that is work. Because today's guest works for a company that owns affordable housing throughout the nation. She's the director of HR for that company. And in that role, she oversees and works with a team of several hundred people.

And she oversees HR processes, she supports in recruiting, and she really supports in onboarding and training and being a light to help ensure that this company stays safe legally and that all the people who work there remain not only compliant, but connected and engaged. And I've had the great pleasure of meeting this young woman at work for this past several years. And what I can tell you is every time I've met her, she is a bright shining light.

She's always dressed to the nines in the most beautiful fashion that is purely her, very individualized. She always has a smile, a hug, a warmth and a light about her. And each time I've met her, she's had the opportunity to speak and she speaks with purpose and with passion and with meaning. And so knowing all of these things, you can imagine my surprise when the last time I was seated in a room with her,

A came up about bucket list items and I mentioned, you know, on my bucket list is I want to go to Kenya. There's an elephant orphanage there and I'm very interested. And this young woman said, Kenya? Kenya is just next to my country, Rwanda.

Jenn Quader (05:48.915)
And I took a moment and I said, forgive me, but isn't Rwanda where there was a relatively recent genocide? And she confirmed yes. And from there, she shared with me a story that she's going to share with you guys today. And friends, I have to tell you, it's unimaginable. And for those who don't know, in 1994,

which is not a long time ago, very well within my lifetime. For a period of months between April and July, there were a series of mass killings that took place in this country. And this was not all military. This was neighbor upon neighbor, friend upon friend. And this conflict was born of political division and of racial tensions that led to hate.

And with that, I think there is no more important time to look at what happened in the country of Rwanda to someone who was there. And then also, how can one find resilience to come out of that, live in a different country, excel in their work, and be a shining light for others? That is the story you will hear today, and you will hear it right from the mouth of one of the most amazing people you will ever meet. With that, I would like to introduce you to today's guests.

The honorable, the graceful, the wonderful Ms. Akayesu. Welcome, Denise.

Denise Akayezu (07:25.07)
Thank you, Jane. I am so happy to be here. It's made like a true hero. So I hope that somebody sees me.

Dr Kelly Culver (07:35.499)
Denise, we're thrilled to have you with us today because your story is really, powerful and for me, my background in international development, I've known about Rwanda for a really long time.

We didn't step in when we should have and step up when we should have. So your story today, I think, is really profound and also, as Jen has said, extraordinarily timely in the uncertainty and chaos that we have around us. I would like to ask you, what does resiliency mean to you?

Denise Akayezu (08:14.414)
I knew that question was coming. Still resilience. So it does mean the ability, somebody having an ability to rise after a fall or falls or difficult situations.

maybe during or after just being able to keep moving forward even when the weight of your past is trying to hold you back, but you find the strength within yourself to keep moving forward. Now, when I describe it like that, it sounds like resilience is all about survival. I believe it is in a way, but it's not only that. It's just being able to find that force within you to

transform hardship into a fuel to succeed or to grow. Now, you are resilient when you get to that point. But in my opinion, you're a full resilient person when you're able to go through that, be successful, but also impact others to overcome their own challenges that they're with.

Jen reached out to me about this podcast. I thought about it a lot. I what's resilient? Am I really resilient? The answer was yes, but I was also forced to think a little deeper. And I'm sorry, I'm very long-winded. So if you ask me a question, usually you're gonna get a bunch of stories before I can get to the answer. I thought about it and I just, I thought resilient.

A person who's resilient is somebody who can mirror a diamond. I don't know about you, but I think diamonds are beautiful. But according to Henry Kissinger, a diamond was just an ordinary stone that went through pressure and handled the pressure very well. And then when it comes out, it's shiny. We're all able to admire it. It shines. So until you're able to...

Denise Akayezu (10:24.43)
to project that energy to others and inspire them to follow the same path or some sort of way they find that power within themselves to actually also end up being resilient or having a story to tell. You haven't been resilient until you're able to actually get others to look up to you and be compassionate and keep some of the good human values within yourself. I think that's how I see resilience.

Dr Kelly Culver (10:53.183)
You've said a couple of things that really resonate with us. We have said here on the podcast a number of times that diamonds do their best work under pressure. So I think it's so fitting that you talk about diamonds. And the other thing that you've said, which is a really great learning piece, is that hardship is the fuel for transformation into something better.

Denise Akayezu (10:56.91)
You

Denise Akayezu (11:07.618)
Okay.

Jenn Quader (11:08.883)
Thank

Dr Kelly Culver (11:19.743)
And we talk about that here too frequently, don't we Jen, on our resilience Trinity. So your context is just brilliant.

Jenn Quader (11:28.601)
I agree. Dr. Kelly talks a lot about needing to put on your pants of steel in order to face the day, if you will. And I think that what you speak about when you talk about being able to remove the weight of your past, you know, I almost see the weight of your past as converting into your pants of steel. And I think you said something really cool, Denise, which was to transform hardship into impact.

You talked about you really are resilient once you not only can kind of be the diamond, but shine, actually shine and others can be impacted by that. And I think that that is, it's a beautiful piece of you. You are someone I met personally and I think that you do shine in your daily life. And it's why learning that you had gone through these types of hardships was such a surprise to me. And it's also why I think it's so important the story be told because often I think people think,

well, those who've gone through hardships, they will show it on their face. I will know. But one would never know with Denise Akayesu that you have been through what you've been through. And I think that that is, that's why you're here, Denise, because you are a leader and you are a change maker and you are a voice for those who need it. So with that, I want you to paint the story for us and please never be worried about being long-winded. We'd like to hear all that you have. So speak from the heart and tell us all. But I want to paint the picture for people because I think often,

things feel quite far away. know, genocide, terrible thing, but it's so far away. So it doesn't feel like it relates to me. But I want you to tell people, Denise, what was life like for you before 1994, before this conflict? Talk to us about what happened prior to this type of unimaginable thing.

Denise Akayezu (13:17.23)
I'm happy to tell that story. Before that, tragic, I was really young. was a kid, I was a little girl, but I recall some of the stuff as if they happened a few years ago. Before genocide, there was killing. We still had Tutsi dying here and there. It was just not a mass killing. So I remember

Being sent to leave with my grandmother. My big sister, myself and my twin brother were sent to leave there because it was right outside of the city. If I have to paint a picture for you, it's like being. You're in California, so being in and live versus being in. So not too far by a little. Father way, because the city was not safe.

So I remember us being sent there to go study there and my father was a teacher. So he taught outside of the city as well and he will be gone Monday to Friday and then coming home Friday night and then leaving again Sunday night. We did the same thing. We came to our home over the weekend, but then most of the time we were outside of the city for safety reasons, also not to experience certain things because people will be taking out of,

Public transportation kids will be taken out of a school bus just so they can be numbered so to see can sit on one side of the bus and who to can sit on one side of the bus just in case they need to come out and and do what they need to do. They don't Miss much people so I remember it being like almost like a cold war knowing that to are basically not accepted in the country. And you being told even in class they would tell us.

Tutsi sit on that side, Hutu sit on this side of the road. I remember some kids being big mouth because they were on that side because we're young. We don't know really who's Tutsi, who's Hutu until they told us what that is actually. Now we're walking around trying to look at people's nose to see, that big nose, that's a Hutu right there.

Denise Akayezu (15:35.296)
If you allow it, if you are a kid that is going that direction, you grew to not like Hutus because they're mean people. They're hurting you. They're beating your friends up. They took your parent to jail yesterday just because, with no reason. it was always an undertone. And I recall being at grandma's house and there would be, know, propagandas. There'll be just like Hutus walking around with

machetes and saying we're going to kill them this week or this month, whatever it is. They had songs that they would sing publicly almost like it's okay to do that. And I remember some days we would not sleep in the house. We would

I can remember my grandmother taking clothes and throwing them on the roof of the house just in case we don't get killed that night. We will have something to wear the next day. We will leave the house after they hate stuff on on the roof of the house and we will go sleep in the mountain or somewhere not in the house just so they come if they come that night they won't find us. They will just not. So it was it's always been a thing for for as long as I can remember.

And as a child, they just been woken up, let's go, we're not gonna sleep here today because they're coming. They didn't have to say who they were, we just knew they were coming. So it's always been that way. It was just genocide is what became a public knowledge, but there was always issues.

Dr Kelly Culver (17:08.833)
Once a conflict started, know, it grew and grew and grew and grew and grew that escalation, that trigger moment. What happened?

Denise Akayezu (17:19.256)
Do you mean the first, like the genocide, the actual event?

Dr Kelly Culver (17:23.233)
Yeah, what happened? Because as Jen has pointed out, people in our North American audience probably don't understand or know what happened in those months. In Canada we do because we were responsible for the NATO peacekeeping mission. But I think that it would probably be really important for you to share with us as you can, as you choose.

what happened when the intense conflict started.

Denise Akayezu (17:56.526)
When I recall, it was a night we were sleeping and we started hearing, you know, gunshots. It just, it sounded crazy. And it was over a school break. I remember it was right after Easter. My big sister actually had been baptized on that Easter. So I don't remember exactly what day, but I feel like it was a day or two after that. Cause I was so young, cause I don't remember a lot of stuff. Time contest has left me. And then,

We get, see my mom, she comes and she's like, you guys wake up, wake up, come to my room. So we're in her room. My dad was gone because he had to be outside of the city. And my sister went, my big sister went with the family members that came to her party, the celebrations, so she was gone. And that's how she ended up being killed outside of us and my father. Now,

My mom is like, gotta find a way to stay safe. And I remember her and my big other big sisters talking because she could understand what's going on. We couldn't. And we had a neighbor next door who was Tutsi, but she was married to a Hutu. her husband was outside of the country on a work mission. So he wasn't home, but his household was considered Hutu because all he had to do is have

Be a Hutu and you can somewhat protect your family. They didn't have kids. They were just married. And I remember my mom saying, let's go to Helen's house and be with her. Because the house, way it was built, they had a hallway that has no window. Now we were so close with that farming to the point, if you, like maybe Kelly, cause you've been in Africa a lot, you would know. And I know Jen, you've been,

in those places so you know we have fence. It's normal for people to have fence around their house. But we had divided the fence to connect to their home so we don't have to go around the fence. So we were that close that we can just go back and forth. So we as we walk from the house to go to Helen's house, the group of people and that was next morning. When the president was killed the night so the next morning we're trying to survive and to hide.

Dr Kelly Culver (20:05.663)
Hmm.

Denise Akayezu (20:25.612)
I remember us leaving the house to go to Helen's house and then we hear them coming and the Hutus, the way they were doing it, it was not quiet. It was like almost there. So proud they're singing, where are they? We got to find them. And one of them had eye contact with my mom. My big sister, their first born was inside the house. She hasn't left. So if she left, they would have seen her because they were coming this way, but we already like,

past the house, so the house is covering us, so we are hiding, but one of them saw us. And that's a person that actually saved us, because he redirected the attention. He said, don't worry about this, these, I already saw them, they left, they got killed on the other end. Like basically lied to them, so he can protect us. He was our neighbor, he used to, he would leave behind us. And I can actually remember him even after genocide, he had become a crazy person, like he, he was just, he lost his mind.

So went to Helen House and I can't tell you honestly how many days we were there. All I can remember is that you heard people screaming, yelling, people just being killed outside. And I don't know if their house was not considered because the man was Hutu and maybe they thought they just don't need to go there. I don't know why nobody came to that house to try to kill us. So I remember being sick with my

other sisters because they were cooking and they are cooking, the windows are closed. So we became suffocated, almost died. And they started like helping me to, to resist it, come back to life. And from there, I think the parents realized we cannot maintain that situation. And they heard that, cause the radio is still working. They heard that the Tutsis, that which I will tell you,

as we go on with this conversation, the Tutsis that were trying to come to the country and gain the power, they're already there. So some of the Tutsis have learned that. So now they're trying to go out of their hiding and just find their way to that troop that was trying to save us. And during that process, I remember us leaving and, you know, parents, they always have their ways. They give you a

Denise Akayezu (22:47.98)
box of cookies, another person have a box of water so we can survive. I mean, you're so little, you can't even hold anything, but you had to. So we're holding it. And I'm like, I remember they tied my little brother around my sister because she was less than a year old. And as we go, some of us just did not survive. Even though it was not a long walk, it wasn't even a mile. We lived close to stadium, which is where we're trying to go hide. But as you go, the two, who to now are scared because

Those Tutsis are already taking over, but they are pretending to be Tutsis as well. And as you're hiding, hiding with them so they're killing people while they're pretending to be one of us. Now I remember my mom telling us, apply blood, pretend it. When they come, just don't breathe. They're going to think you died. So they're not, they're not going to touch you. So that's how I ended up surviving. So we went into the stadium and we were there for, I don't know how many days.

And that troop that came to the country saved some of us and they took us to a part of the country called Byumba. There was no conflict anymore so they had already taken that part of the country. So that's where we were for a few months until the war was over and then we came back home. That's in summary.

Jenn Quader (24:10.387)
Denise, my goodness. And this is, you shared some of this with me and I'd like to dig into this a little bit. I think that, I think first of all, I just wanna comment that it's amazing to see this through the eyes of a little girl because a little girl is so innocent and really, so to see that and to envision you holding your box of cookies and your water that you've been given by your mom.

and then going and doing what you're told, which is, as I heard, cover yourself with blood and pretend to be dead. And so all of this is the culmination of, and you've mentioned this, you've spoken about how as you grew up, you are a Tutsi and you were told you must sit in a different area and you must do different things. I wanna dive for just a minute into that hate, if we can. There are two groups of people, the Hutus and the Tutsi.

And as you said, these are the people that are killing each other. not even just, again, this is neighbor upon neighbor, this is just people. And so I wanna understand from your perspective, having been a little girl living in this, do you know why that hate is there? And do you know what propelled it so viciously?

Denise Akayezu (25:29.55)
Honestly, who can know why people just would do something like that and be sure of it. All I can know is just what I was told, what I observed, but some of it started before I was alive or maybe even before my parents were alive in this life, right? But I do know that when you look at a Hutu next to a Tutsi, it's not a big, for somebody outside of the country,

There's not a big difference. You can't really tell, but I can tell because I was coached to look at those things. It's just the way we look, physical appearance are a little different. You can say maybe Tutsis are more, our fixtures are more closer to European than Hutus are. If I can describe it that way, we have a longer nose, we seem to be slender, taller, and...

Honestly, if nobody says anything, most people will not even know. So I would say that what happened in 1994 before, or maybe still lingers in people's mind, it's not really simply a matter of ethnic hatred. It's more a result of colonial impacts, know, social...

climbing behavior and political issues, honestly. And that's what I would say. I know that being colonized by European, when the Belgium came into the country, they participated in, they contributed in building that divide, allowing us to know the difference, to look at a Hutu and tell that they're Hutu. And they also identified us. They said,

Hutus are majority, Tutsis are minority. And at the time, traditionally, Hutus were farmers and Tutsis were more carers owners. So socially, we did different things and also we acted different because we exposed to different lifestyles. And until then, it was okay and it was accepted and it wasn't an issue until it became an issue because Belgium now favored Tutsis during that colonial time.

Denise Akayezu (27:54.19)
They give them more economic valued items and they give them better positions socially. So they kind of felt they better than Hutus. And Hutus...

obviously they're going to retaliate. Now, fast forward post colonial time, Belgium switched their position. They now favor Hutu, so they give them some support, and then that support was used to dehumanize Tutsis and to mistreat them in a way. And about 19, in the 19, late 1950s and 60s, some of the Tutsis fled the country.

That included some of my family members that I even never got to know. They went to neighboring countries like Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania, Burundi, Congo. And eventually they formed a troop to try to come back to their country and end their rights. And that did not sit well with the Hutus now that are in power. So they started justifying that fear by

committing a mass killing. So to summarize, it was more so the colonial manipulation, the economic and then just the political struggles and the disparity, the inequality in economy, economically. So it was not just a hatred, it was taught behavior and it resulted in what became a horrible part of the country's history.

Jenn Quader (29:37.125)
If I may, I want to dig into that. It was taught behavior. And what I heard you say, and you said it so beautifully, Denise, I'm going to boil it down to one little thing, but you spoke of colonial impact. You spoke of social climbing and political issues. And again, you told the story beautifully. If I were to distill it down, I would say it's about money and power. What would you say to that?

Denise Akayezu (29:45.346)
you

Denise Akayezu (30:03.702)
I would say that, but at the time, honestly, if I look back or I hear the stories that were told after I started being, you know, bigger and being in a country, I realize the country really did not have much money and people just were okay sharing. And you can tell it's just, you know, like people do things without realizing they're doing them. And then

The more I'm told that Jen is against me, I'm going to just continue to find ways to be against Jen if I don't pull out my good side and then I just apply my bad side. I don't think it was more so about power and money, maybe power because people just love power, but money, was not a lot of money. It's just, you know, it could be, but it's more so just ignorance.

And people are accepting information without verifying them and seeing what's in for me. If I do this, really, what is going to be the impact? How is this going to change my life? So people just follow the crowd without knowing what it is that they're trying to achieve, and they end up being a disaster.

Jenn Quader (31:22.783)
my love, I'm so glad you said that. And Dr. Kelly, if you'll permit me, I'd like to proceed in this just a little longer before we get to the transformation post-conflict. Because again, I'm very glad I asked that question because in my very American perspective, I assume that everything is based on power and money. But what you spoke to is something, and I have heard of this as someone in public relations, I've heard of this and I understand this, which is the powerful use of propaganda.

which is what created this belief. And again, this is the part that is so hard for me to understand because, you spoke of it so beautifully, Denise, it's pure ignorance. It's taught behavior to the extent, I'm hearing you talk about, this wasn't just ads, this was songs. This was people, know, battle cries saying, I can go and kill my neighbor. And some of the things I've read say that Hutu,

killed their own spouses. You you mentioned a Hutu and a Tutsi who were married, but there were accounts of people who killed their own spouses. And again, this is, it's unthinkable in a lot of ways, but I would love it if you would speak for a moment to the role of propaganda. And for those who don't know, it's been well-documented. Not only it sounds like throughout the entire country's history, there was always this understanding of the challenge between Hutu and Tutsi or whatever was being created. But my understanding is,

as this conflict, know, the actual genocide kicked off in April of 1994, that there was an extremely well-organized campaign. My understanding, again, from reading is that a radio station was created, that things were, and things went lightning fast to make it okay to go take a machete and slice into your neighbor.

And I want to ask you, Denise, if you will speak to the role of propaganda. And I want to say this for our audience. We got to listen to this because this is not just what happens in Rwanda. This is what happens across the world. So can we talk a little bit about propaganda and how it's used to affect human behavior?

Denise Akayezu (33:34.016)
It is a such a great technique to recruit people that.

for lack of better words that don't have a mind, they have a mind, but they choose not to use a mind of their own. So I remember the radio just being, it's almost like also sometimes when I think of propaganda, I wonder what was wrong with Tutsis. You're hearing you're gonna be killed. Why are you here? Why are you not trying to go somewhere? But again, that's just me thinking, cause I'm.

becoming more westernized than I am, know, African at this point mentally. And when I analyzed this, I'm like, did you guys like think about going and buy machetes too? Because again, at that point, they are in power. So the government is composed by Hutus. So they're buying their machetes. We had actually a company that produced them. So

they had access to it and you, we go into school and maybe they're just closing school almost like when there's a big snow in America we close schools. They're closing school just so they can have.

rallies and they can just scream and sing how Tutsis are awful and they deserve to die and they don't belong and you're walking to a market nobody wants to tell you anything because Tutsis why are you buying anything because you're gonna die tonight anyway you don't need groceries and it was just publicly announced that way and I remember one day as a kid going from school to home and my family just grieving

Denise Akayezu (35:17.624)
thinking my mom was killed. But she wasn't. She actually was taken out of a car and then they took her to jail and she went missing for days. So we weren't told until later. So they had this thing where everything stops and then they're singing so we know tutsis need to go hide in their houses because tutus are singing around the house. You're gonna die. We will kill you. Enjoy the rest of your life for the next few days. It was just bad. So the propaganda is...

It really works, but it only works when people allow it to work. And it is encouraging people in power, obviously, and they provided them with tools to do so. And they taught them how killing these tootsies is going to allow you opportunities. It's almost like if I have to put it in our lives today, it's somebody telling a person, like someone in power telling a person, if you hurt Denise

who will give you Denise's position and if that person is not informed enough, they're going to believe it and they probably will do something about it, end up regretting it because they're gonna lose it. Eventually you end up losing. So I would like for your audience to know that at the end of the day, propagandas do work.

But if you choose to do the right thing, you come out victorious. If you choose to do the wrong thing, you're not going to win because after genocide, a lot of them also were killed or they still are in prison for the rest of their lives. So it really is unfortunate that people choose the easier way, which is just doing the wrong thing. And it does work because I remember it as a kid looking at it, I'm like, what are these people doing?

What did we do? Just because I have a long nose, is this a thing? But kids, we ended up with no parents, with no neighbors, and it was, people were not killed by somebody who don't know them. They were killed by the next door neighbor who definitely know you're aware about, so you're easily found.

Denise Akayezu (37:31.458)
And they taught them that way, so it's divided and strategically put that way. So there's not a lot to spend financially. It's just you provide them with the machetes and other equipment. They don't even have to commute. They'll just kill the next door neighbor.

Dr Kelly Culver (37:47.051)
You're talking about the power of influence. And I think that's more than an economic advantage. It's the power of influence. And that's how we have to be able to, you can we distill when we hear and see propaganda, can we distill the right path because there's an influence people are trying to have over the decisions that we take. And that then is about having positions of power and remaining in power.

Denise Akayezu (37:50.135)
Yes.

Denise Akayezu (37:54.029)
Yes.

Dr Kelly Culver (38:15.541)
You've described it just so really well.

Denise Akayezu (38:18.818)
No, you did well because you adopted Chloe.

Jenn Quader (38:20.403)
That's right, dr. Kelly always

Denise Akayezu (38:24.802)
Not allowed.

Dr Kelly Culver (38:29.053)
Stop.

Denise Akayezu (38:31.374)
you

Jenn Quader (38:33.095)
Dr. Kelly, have such a great global view of this. I think what an interesting juxtaposition between a young woman who lived through this and who saw this and a Canadian citizen who has worked across the world in helping governments to avoid situations like this and or to clean up. And I won't say clean, but to like figure out how to move around these types of situations. I wonder, Dr. Kelly, maybe I turn the question to you for just a minute to speak for just a moment about.

Maybe from your global perspective, how Rwanda either was different than other things you've seen or the same. And I'm framing that question so it's quite open. But if you could maybe give us some comparison for why Rwanda has stuck out as such a, you know, it's so powerful. I know that there are other places where horrible things happen, but could you speak from your global perspective to Rwanda in its role as part of the global climate?

Dr Kelly Culver (39:31.809)
Well, think Rwanda, mean, if you talk to Canadians, Rwanda has this place because we had a position of responsibility and we failed. We failed to intervene when we should have. And the country went through sort of a moral angst on could have, should have, would have, didn't. So it sits with us in a place that isn't good.

But secondly, it was so fast, so vicious and over so quickly and it just unfolded right in front of our eyes. It was like you were watching this story in front of you and you couldn't move or intervene quickly enough to make some sense of it. Like even today, there are similar, if I can use that word, Denise, you'll permit me to use that word, similar challenges in Congo right now. Huge.

challenges in Congo. And I will say, you know, we haven't necessarily learned the lesson. But for Rwanda, it was like this linchpin of, oh my goodness, we can never ever let that happen again, collectively, internationally, what do we need to do? It was a tipping point. That's why it sticks out for us. It was a tipping point in 1994. Things like that shouldn't be happening in 1994, you know?

So that's my short answer to your question.

Jenn Quader (41:00.403)
Well, it's a truth. mean, I think that's what like it's it's hard for me to believe that this stuff can happen and did happen and that and that's why when I you know, I spoke of it as I did the intro Denise because it's like you just could never guess or or understand but the fact that this does still happen and I want to speak to Denise because you mentioned like even as a young girl you were like, well, what why would you why would you stick around? You know, like you you're being told this

But that is part of this human psyche that is so interesting to me because I will draw the compare. I don't think it's a comparison. I think it's a very different thing. But obviously there was a Holocaust that went against people of a Jewish culture and faith. And I wondered for so many years growing up when I read about that and saw about that, why didn't the people who were not of that culture just stand up and say no? Why didn't someone say no? And I think what I'm hearing is

that it's like there's an energy that comes when this propaganda is in place and these feelings are in place. There is an energy. And I mean, even a country as strong as Canada can't overtake this tidal wave of hate. I wanna stay in this for one more moment because the next thing we're gonna get to is the transition out of this hardship. But I wanna ask, and Denise.

Denise Akayezu (42:17.07)
Before you go, I don't want to forget about something you just say, which it's really tying into what Dr. Kelly said. It's the power of influence. it, for me personally, allows me to forgive Canada and any other country because look at me after those years, I'm sitting here thinking, why did my people not run away? Because it's hard for a human being to wrap their head around something so

Jenn Quader (42:20.179)
Please.

Denise Akayezu (42:46.498)
heinous but also stupid. It made no sense. So it is hard to anticipate that things can go that way, especially without a background. Now what I condemn, I don't accept is when we have been through it and then Congo is now blooming to potentially get there and we're sitting here doing nothing. it's, the power of influence is really powerful and influence is the people that are trying to hurt.

that group of people to feel powerful, but it also influences those being attacked to think they don't have any choice but to stay there and take it. So it's influencing both ends. They allow you to sit there and wait for them to do what they told you they're going to do. And then they allow the other person to continue to go there and then boom, it just get destroyed. And then Canada and all of us that are outside, we're like, what just happened?

Would they told you they were going to do that? Would you just did not believe that they can actually do something so low?

Jenn Quader (43:50.019)
heinous and stupid is well said and and I want to say this too because I think a lot of the logistics of the you know This is like you mentioned this you said this group comes in they make this decision We're gonna kill all the Tutsis. They put it all on the radio. They they they do it and now what do you have? You have a broken country with bodies Scattered across the like what did the country look like at the end of the conflict?

Denise Akayezu (44:21.166)
My heart hurts just when I remember that. First of all, you coming back to a country, to a place where your home is destroyed. You don't have a family. I'm sorry.

Jenn Quader (44:38.918)
It's okay.

Denise Akayezu (44:54.348)
I do smile a lot when I'm so quiet.

Dr Kelly Culver (44:54.682)
in.

Jenn Quader (44:58.387)
This is something to cry over. These are the beautiful tears of strength and joy and the fact, you know, and so thank you because this is difficult and tender and we are so grateful to you.

Denise Akayezu (45:10.328)
Sorry. So you come back and everything just looked different. The houses are down, the shops, the markets are just destroyed, groceries everywhere. The whole city smells like dead meat. It's just so bad. It was awful. I can never forget, like kids like me.

just being lost, you are lost. You don't have the people you used to call family and your home is gone. you ending up in other people's family who are taking you in because they probably lost their own kids. They have to raise someone's kids. So families started re-dutting themselves by raising other people's kids.

It was just really, really awful.

Denise Akayezu (46:19.502)
People that are older enough, they're being selected to go and identify bodies and you know, the bodies that are actually completely gone or destroyed. But if the bones are close to, sure this color and people remember it being Denise's, so that means that's Denise. So us just really trying to identify our family members and then just not having funerals, really taking them to a place where eventually we'll have a memorial service for the group.

It was bad and then I was taken by this family, friends, family that used to be my family's friends and they took me in and they raised me and you continue school. Luckily the president that is in power right now really found a way to have unity. we schools were free eventually, so continue education and if you had some.

Good grades, you will go even to achieve a college degree. So it was it was awful. The beginning was awful and some people did not survive it. They either committed suicide or they just became abnormal. They have mental illness. They stay so.

Dr Kelly Culver (47:39.201)
I'd like to just jump in and pick up on something. Sorry, Jen, because you talked about the current president who's there and turning it around. And again, if I can come back to that international development hat that I wear. The turnaround, here's the other thing that is just so remarkable about Wanda. The turnaround that the country has made since 1994 is nothing short of extraordinary.

Denise Akayezu (47:39.648)
Okay.

Dr Kelly Culver (48:07.115)
for economic and social development, for becoming a center of digital transformation for Africa, for safety. I wouldn't walk at night in some streets, in some cities in my country or in your country, the US, but the capital, Kigali, or Kigali Innovation City,

Being able to walk around there. It's just so fundamentally different. It's a sea change shift different. And if I can just, you know, kind of go on for a second with Kigali Innovation City, what do we have there? We've got investments from Oracle, Cisco, Microsoft, JP Morgan, Mellon, universities. It's like out of the ashes of something so horrific.

is blooming and blossoming this light, know, this beacon that if you want to do something right, this is how you can do it.

Denise Akayezu (49:14.262)
Yes, they are definition. If we're talking about a country, they're resilient country. They went through down whole transformation. And when we now look at my country, I'm like, this real? Kelly, you've been there. So, you know, there's no dark roads anymore. It's just everything's clean. You can't carry a plastic bag in my country. So it's the president and his team have done tremendous work and

They have done their best to remove that divide. So there's unity. You see in the government position, you see Hutus and you see Tutsis, predominantly Tutsis obviously, but I am just proud to be Rwandan. I wouldn't have been years ago, but I am just, I'm so glad you said it. Cause if I said it, would seem like I'm just advertising my country. Sounds better than someone else who actually has lived it.

Dr Kelly Culver (50:08.102)
No. No.

Jenn Quader (50:13.235)
you

Denise Akayezu (50:13.294)
and you can see the difference. don't even think you can compare Rwanda in 1998 to the one that today is just a different country completely.

Dr Kelly Culver (50:18.954)
No.

Dr Kelly Culver (50:23.605)
Yeah, it's just, it's game-changingly different. So Rwanda has changed and it has differentiated itself, it's moved on. But what about you? How have you moved on with your life? Because I think you're a bit of a shining star according to Jen. So tell us that story.

Denise Akayezu (50:26.68)
Yeah.

Denise Akayezu (50:44.544)
Yeah, I'm not here. So I have transformed myself. I wouldn't say I did it by myself. Obviously, you know, people that were able to receive me and take me in and actually raise me to be encouraged me to be a better person. And if I go back, I remember being in college, we had created. So we had what we call if files, it was a fund that supports

children that are genocide survivors to go through school. They will give us school and even pocket money like, you know, to support us through it. You get in school, you realize you're not the only one. There's a lot of people that don't have family members. So we created artificial families where

that it was I-L-G and it was done, that's the abbreviation in French, that was done through that fund. So to this day have people that I call my sisters, my brothers, my cousins, because we will even have a mother and a father in that artificial family. So went through college, just always looked at ways to see things positively, and a lot of us in those families ended up building ourselves up.

So I eventually moved out of the country, found a job, and I remember when I look back, I think my most resilient moment is not surviving genocide and going through those things, because I was just a little girl following what they taught, telling me to do. My most defining moment where I was like, I'm actually, you know, can I say something bad? So I'm a badass, I'm a resilient woman.

Jenn Quader (52:27.507)
Yeah

Denise Akayezu (52:30.994)
It's when I moved here in 2009 and I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't know English. I didn't speak English. Because as you know, French was the main language until now they have both. So I didn't speak English. Did not know anything. I'm from a small country now in America. Everything is big. The first time I landed I was like, why are so many cars at this?

in this community because I was living in a town home community and it's just every house had a few cars and I'm like what is this? It looked to me for somebody from where I'm from it looks like a garage. Why is this shop repair or something so many cars? More cars and people and I got lost and I was

Like, I don't think I can make it here. I don't understand what they're doing, what they're saying. I don't have documentation to work in America, so was here on a school visa. And I'm like, I don't think I can be here. I remember just thinking I'm going to go back. But then going back was not an option because it was a failure. I stayed. For somebody who had education, I started doing jobs where I was like...

This is not what I went to school to learn. Like, I'm not supposed to be cleaning. I'm not supposed to be doing these things. But a voice in my head told me, it because that's how you're gonna be able to eat and then think and then figure out a way to grow. So, fast forward, I had a job in retail where I was their beauty advisor with for Estee Lauder on their cosmetic counter. And eventually our human resources who had interviewed me.

was leaving the job. She came and told me before she can even tell her boss, I'm leaving this job. I know you have a background. Are you interested? I was like, I am, but I don't think I can do that. I was still learning English. don't think, and then the manager did, that department stores manager was hard to deal with. I was like, I can't do it. She will kill me if I don't do what I need to do. And...

Denise Akayezu (54:47.498)
I was so soft spoken, too young. And she's like, I have watched you do things. You can do it. And if you want to go to this, go back to your field, this is how you do it. You always have somebody that's going to believe in you, open the door for you. And then you have to have that power within yourself and pushing through no matter what. Even if you don't see the end, just go and you will know when you're there. You were walking, you know, you'll start seeing the light. So.

Then that's how I went back to being in my HR field. And fast forward, I'm here and everything I do, I remember where I came from. I don't forget because if I forgot, then I would probably end up back there.

Jenn Quader (55:36.039)
Denise, you are an incredible and resilient person. And what I wanna speak to really quickly, because it speaks to a lot of what Dr. Kelly and I talk about on Resilience, the podcast, which is that you have to keep going. Your story didn't stop with there was a horrible thing that happened. You moved to a new country, you learned a new language. And what I love that I heard you say is, I kept working. I cleaned, I did retail, I did whatever I needed. And now,

You have a job at a big national company where you are doing the work that you were trained to do. I feel like the one thing I wanna ask, and then I know Dr. Kelly probably has a question too, but it strikes me that to go through the upbringing that you had and to go through the genocide that you experienced and the type of fear that that had to incite as you are literally hiding for your life, I wanna ask if you can comment on how you...

Personally, we're able to stay so open and I ask that because you speak to after the conflict Forming new families that requires openness It requires the ability to love again and then openness to to listen to a co-worker and go try new things Can you speak to what is it inside Denise that allowed you having gone through something so difficult to not close the door?

to life's love and resilience.

Denise Akayezu (57:08.278)
Honestly, cannot tell, but I would, if I have to guess, it has to do with just a human nature, something that is naturally given to us. And if you want to build on it, you will be able to find it within you. But I also would say I will not take credit because there are people, those people, positive people around me that...

you know, government putting that fund out there that allowed me to be in those schools where I can create that artificial family. And I was actually always the leader of that group. I was always holding those meetings. So I think I was trying not to be so bored that I'm thinking about my problems. So I always found myself doing something. Even when I moved here, I was doing those jobs that I know that I'm overly qualified, actually wasn't qualified to do those jobs, but I was.

always thinking, maybe I can just go and when I'm not working, I can take evening classes and there's a school here that supports people with low incomes. I can go and learn for free and maybe I can go get an MBA. Like I always have something to do. So I'm not focused on thinking of the negative impact. And then eventually I found myself thinking, well, my family was not rich. If they were here, would they have been able to afford me a college degree? Maybe it is.

it happened, but also at the end of the day, some good things came to me because just, think it's the power of life and you just digging deep and finding something within you, but also being exposed to good people that are gonna project that light that you want to follow and then you just knowing, don't wanna cry, I just wanna work, because I think this is gonna distract me. It was almost like me distracting myself.

and then luckily finding myself in the right place at the right time.

Dr Kelly Culver (59:00.255)
you talk about that again, know, whether you realize it or not, you've just given us another example of hardship is the fuel for the transformation. And you've given us some examples and strategies on how you move forward rather than live in the past.

And for the people who might be listening in today, do you have any other strategies or any other advice that you could give them on how to move forward rather than dwelling and being stuck in the past? Because you can't fix that.

Denise Akayezu (59:37.144)
So I would tell the people that are listening to one, finding yourself to forgive, if you can't find it, force yourself to do so. Because until you have forgiven what has harmed you, who has harmed you, you're going to stay in the past. You're going to look at Dr. Kelly and she's gonna remind you somebody that did that to you.

and you're going to hate Kelly for no reason. It was not even there. So you just really try to forgive and personally, I think for the people that have been through what I have been through or similar to, you have to remember nobody normal will do those things. So if you have realized this is just was a supernatural force that is completely negative and don't hate those people.

maybe dislike what caused them to do that, which sometimes you can't even touch or feel is intangible. And then just keep moving forward because you make a choice. Do I really want to be that or do I really want to find a way? My husband has approaches. I'm able to sell it. Why can I sell it and buy a new house and start over? That's just personally how I see it. You compare the two.

Is that better than this? if you think being angry and upset every day and crying every day and mourning what happened to you is better, then you stay there. But eventually you need mental health support. And then that person that was next to you going through the same thing that chose to go that way, you will be looking at them as if you never knew them. So you just choose to forgive. Don't forget, because if you forget, you probably will make

mistakes that those other people made and then to realize that it's better to move forward than to stay back.

Jenn Quader (01:01:33.341)
Denise, you brought me to tears when you said forgive, because I will be honest and say that it hadn't occurred to me that that actually is step one. And honestly, it hadn't occurred to me that I could physically forgive someone who had a machete and killed someone I loved, to be honest. And I think that you spoke of it in an amazing way, which is, and I wanna just repeat what I heard you say, which I thought was really important, is that you don't hate the people, only the supernatural force that was causing that.

And I think that by placing that outside of the people, it sounds like that is the answer to how you were able to guard and maintain a capacity for love. And I've heard you say that really it's about focusing on the positive. And so I guess as kind of a final question before we get into, we're gonna get into some fun ending of how we always end Resiliency, the podcast, but this has been deep and passionate and difficult and we've gone through a lot of different things, but really,

What I love about this episode, Denise, is I think I expected that it was going to be, I'm gonna use the word yuckier, because we were dealing with such a yucky subject, and that is genocide. And yet, what you've brought out of this is a true story of how to find the light. And so I wanna ask, if there are people out there today who are angry and having trouble forgiving,

and who are closed and they themselves have had something heinous happen to them, what would you tell them?

Denise Akayezu (01:03:13.678)
Tell them what I just said. I try to relate to them. I would try to tell them my stories and the steps that I've taken and just encourage them to take the same steps or similar based on their situation and then just hope they hear me. Because sometimes it really is a hard choice to make and it's a self-conscious decision you make every day you wake up. Because humans, we are born with

certain things that we can change about us. One of them is emotions and feelings. And I would just ask them to choose to use more when it comes to life. Maybe use your brain more than you use your heart in certain things. Because if you are thinking of how to get better, you don't continue to drown in what you don't like about life.

Just find what you like about life and do it because I truly believe we all can survive bad situations and then be better people to ourselves and to others. So I would definitely, in general, I would encourage and sometimes I feel like I need to find a charity or something that I can support where I can just go and speak about myself. Look at me, a few years ago, I was looking for a roommate.

that can live with me in the same room, not in the same apartment, in the same room so can afford it. Right now, I don't see myself living anywhere but in my own home. So, and it didn't take that many years. It did not take that I was supernatural and I was superhuman. It just took me realizing that it's better to move forward. It's better to just...

allow life to do what it does. Sometimes it challenges us, it's surprising, and some challenges you don't even know how to get through them, but if you focus it to do the right thing, you're gonna get there.

Dr Kelly Culver (01:05:15.445)
You're teaching us about mindset. You're teaching us about mindset. And that really is there's a heart set, but there's a mindset. And sometimes that's the more powerful thing.

Denise Akayezu (01:05:17.942)
Yes, yes.

Jenn Quader (01:05:28.199)
I think pretty much always. I'd say, I think the mind leads us through all of it. And Denise, I just applaud you. I applaud you. I applaud your soul and your spirit for knowing these deep truths and for staying open. And like I said, every encounter I have ever had with you has been of true and deep love. is clear to me that you love mankind. It is clear to me that you love humans. It is clear to me that you...

that you are someone who drives things forward in a positive way. And I wanna tell you here at Resiliency, the podcast, I know that our audience is going to love you and we support you in speaking and in telling this story anywhere and everywhere you can because I want you to know just me sitting here today, even more, I thought I knew, but what I've learned from you is really feeding my soul in a resilient way. So I just wanna say thank you for that, Denise.

Denise Akayezu (01:06:24.418)
You're welcome. And thank you for allowing me to sit here and talk to you and talk about maybe 2 % of my story. But it is helpful to speak about these things. And I would say if one thing I'm not this person that you're seeing right now, sometimes I close my door and cry so I can be able to smile the next day. But it is important to remember.

Go back to your previous question. It's important to remember what it could be. It could be worse. And if you can see how that to today is better, because we're all thriving to do better. I don't want to be a director of human resources for the rest of my life. I want to grow. I want it to be bigger. But if I don't appreciate what I have right now, it's hard for me to move on to the next one because I probably would.

telling me like push away people that can support me get there. So I always leave my life accepting where I come from, but also where I am right now. You might work with people that are going to look down on you, especially like somebody who speaks like me with an accent. Sometimes you will meet people that think your brain works just the same way your tongue works and you see it, you read it as they speak to you. They treating you differently and not in a good way. If you get angry, you respond to that.

And then you would ruin your opportunities. Sometimes you put your head down and that's why I would tell those people put your head down and then continue to walk forward. So I do appreciate what happened to me, what is happening. And then I look forward to what's going to happen because I know it's going to be better. It's always going forward. I have not seen.

me failing and I don't see myself failing and I don't contribute to anybody's failure. always thrive to, if I was not in human resources, I probably would be a social worker because anything I do, I wanted to have to do with humans because I feel like it's good to the propaganda. should be, we should have a voice to do good influence, Dr. Kelly, good positive influence versus the propaganda. So,

Dr Kelly Culver (01:08:35.339)
Hahaha

Denise Akayezu (01:08:39.392)
Somebody's over there teaching something negative, there should be a group of us teaching something positive.

Dr Kelly Culver (01:08:48.065)
Well, I'm hoping that we can get to learn a bit more. You you said that we just we've learned about 2 % of you. So let's see if we can learn about, know, maybe another five or 10 or 20 % of you. I kind of yeah.

Denise Akayezu (01:08:55.118)
you

Jenn Quader (01:08:58.673)
Hey.

Denise Akayezu (01:08:59.662)
That was rough. It was not correct. I don't think it was 2 % money. Metric wise, could be more, but I know I definitely have some of the stories that we had to abbreviate.

Dr Kelly Culver (01:09:06.685)
Yeah.

Dr Kelly Culver (01:09:14.441)
Yeah, that's true.

So are you ready for us to learn a bit more about you?

Denise Akayezu (01:09:19.34)
Yeah.

Jenn Quader (01:09:24.039)
This is the rapid fire portion.

Dr Kelly Culver (01:09:25.749)
That's right. What's your favorite movie or TV show that makes you feel resilient?

Denise Akayezu (01:09:33.048)
So I have to, can I give you two?

One is very famous and I'm sure you probably have heard this answer is the pursuit of happiness. Just watching how the men are towards this hindering life remain true to themselves, is kind, and they just continue to work hard to get where they need to get. I find that to be human and accurate to what life can be sometimes. But recently a very, very good friend of mine

talk to me about a movie called Room. I don't know, have you watched Room? You should watch it. As this woman that got, that was kidnapped, and her kidnapper put her in a room with no windows. It just had a clear ceiling, like a little spot where you can see the light coming in. And she was there for years. So her kidnapper was raping her.

Every opportunity he had and got her pregnant, she had a son and the son was raised in that room. He basically she was in a cage and he would send food in there and the kid grew to not know that there's a life outside of that room. Eventually she strategically and that's what I saying about, you know, if you're living with a challenge with being mistreated right now.

Sometimes you have to strategically find a way to work with the person that is mistreating you. So she found a way to manipulate that guy to, and then told her son how to get them out of that room. You have to watch that movie. And eventually she ended up leaving that room through her son and we built her life outside of that room.

Denise Akayezu (01:11:28.142)
And she sent a sign that never seen the day of light and he was shocked because it's just, you know, it's new to him. So you should watch that movie. And it kinda became a new movie for me that is more resilient. Cause most people would just find a way to hang themselves in that room, but she didn't. yeah, Room is a good movie to watch us on Netflix.

Dr Kelly Culver (01:11:52.989)
It sounds like a bit of a metaphor for the story that you've been telling us. Yeah. Now what about a song that makes you feel resilient?

Denise Akayezu (01:11:55.574)
Yes. Yes.

Denise Akayezu (01:12:03.31)
It's a song. I can tell you that almost every song by Bob Marley, they're all inspiring to me. Not because of the whole history and what he's done for people in life, but if I had to choose one, would be no woman, no cry. We all know that woman is just not. Growing up as a kid, I thought he was saying, if women did not exist, people would never cry. That's what I thought.

Jenn Quader (01:12:28.459)
Ha!

Denise Akayezu (01:12:29.986)
But then as a grown up, I listened to it, I realized the woman was just, know, by extension, it was human. It encourages people to go through hardship and continue to walk through it. Remember when you were used to see it and we used to chat and remember your life, but also keep moving forward and successfully do so. So no woman, no cry. It is monster. Really?

Dr Kelly Culver (01:12:52.349)
I love that you've picked that song because all the time. Yeah, because of all the years I've spent living and working in the Caribbean. That's the national anthem. Everywhere. It's just like that's a Friday night song for me. That's very cool.

Denise Akayezu (01:13:02.562)
Beautiful song. Yes. Yeah.

Yes, it is so cool, so relaxing, but also inspiring at the same time. Yeah.

Dr Kelly Culver (01:13:11.593)
Yeah, yeah, that's right. It's such a haunting melody. What's the last thing that made you laugh?

Denise Akayezu (01:13:20.238)
So I recently laughed at myself.

I was about to go to a place where I volunteer. I teach kids and how to build, like young adults on how to build their resumes and, you know, my personal time. And I was dealing with a community that was challenging, not receptive. And I was in a mirror just knowing that they're going to challenge me. As soon as I opened my mouth, they're going to be like, we can't understand you English. Because, you know, I just, was talking to myself.

And in the mirror as I put on my makeup and then I ended up laughing so hard. I just realized how dramatic I was being and how it was not necessary. I'm like, you offering something they want it, they take it, if they don't, it is what it is. Why are you bothering yourself so much? So I realized that being resilient sometimes is just laughing at yourself because we can be hard on ourselves, especially if your goal is always go, go, go, go. And when you stop, you realize.

This was not necessary. I didn't need to talk to myself. I look crazy.

Dr Kelly Culver (01:14:29.471)
You were calling yourself on your own drama queen moment, weren't you? Yeah. I do that all the time.

Denise Akayezu (01:14:33.934)
it.

So.

Jenn Quader (01:14:36.883)
Same. And the power that you could laugh right in the moment, because I often don't laugh till later when I'm like, Jen, why were you being so crazy? So good job, Denise.

Dr Kelly Culver (01:14:43.105)
Yeah.

Denise Akayezu (01:14:46.956)
Yes, I called my husband. was like, this is this is I'm just being crazy. He's like, told you I told you that you just need to be laughs. Yeah, it was funny. But I'm sure I'm going to do it again.

Jenn Quader (01:14:56.851)
I love it.

Human nature

Dr Kelly Culver (01:15:03.265)
Of course you are. Of course you are.

Denise Akayezu (01:15:04.91)
you

Yeah.

Dr Kelly Culver (01:15:08.427)
So Denise, do you have a question that you would like to leave for future guests?

Denise Akayezu (01:15:13.246)
Who? Out of you, but one was a winner. I would say, ask your guests, how do they balance being resilient and being, having a self empathy? Because resilient people tend to be hard on themselves. And sometimes we run ourselves like a car without an engine. don't do other change sometimes.

and we expect the car to continue driving. So how do you find a balance of being strong and resilient, but also remember that you're human and sometimes you just need a break?

Jenn Quader (01:15:57.071)
I love that question, Denise. Thank you for leaving it. I was actually speaking with a counselor friend of mine just yesterday and she was asking, how was I sleeping? And I said, I'm sleeping really well, you And once we got down to it, she was like, so are you telling me you're waking up at six and going to bed at midnight every night? And I was like, well, yeah. And she's like, do you think that's enough sleep? And so it brings me back to that, you know, I'm thinking like, I've got to keep going. I got to be resilient.

Denise Akayezu (01:16:00.718)
you

Jenn Quader (01:16:24.445)
But exactly what you're saying, how can you bring that self empathy and that self knowledge in such beautiful balance, Denise? I have a last, sorry, go ahead. It is hard. It is. Okay, I have a last question for you, my dear. So this is a question that was left from a past guest here at Resiliency, the podcast. Are you ready? Okay.

Denise Akayezu (01:16:33.198)
It's really hard. It's very hard. It is hard.

Denise Akayezu (01:16:47.488)
I am. I think I am.

Jenn Quader (01:16:49.711)
I think you've made an A plus on all the answers thus far, so I think you're doing pretty well. All right, our final question from a past guest is this. Ms. Akayasu, what would you do if you had no fear?

Denise Akayezu (01:16:55.566)
Thank you.

Denise Akayezu (01:17:11.042)
not fear.

I'll probably take my savings and invest it in something, literally. I would invest in some projects that I have envied, but I get concerns. What if? So if I didn't have that fear, I probably would be richer because I can't just invest my money. But what if I had a car accident? What would happen to me? So yes, if I had no fear personally, I would do that.

I think I had no fear a few years ago when I moved here, they get it hopes. So, yeah, I'll go back to that person. I just be like, okay, I'm going. I don't know what's going to happen, but it's going to happen. So yeah, I would invest all my savings in something that I believe in, but I'm afraid to do so.

Jenn Quader (01:18:03.901)
Denise, I gotta tell you, you are an impressive human being. Throughout this entire interview, what I can tell you is that as we talked about heinous, difficult, disgusting, awful things, what you actually brought every time is light and belief and faith and something really beautiful. And I think that when you bring it down to if you eliminated fear in your life, what you would do is invest. It just, what a beautiful way to end this, which is to say,

It looks to me, if I could boil this down, like resilience really is about always looking ahead. When you invest in something, you're pushing something ahead. When you invest in your own education, you're pushing yourself ahead. And so I just wanna say, I wanna thank you because I really think you've brought an energy to our audience and to our listeners that is of pure resilience and in a really positive way. So Denise, is there anything that you'd like to share or anywhere you would like for people to find you online?

if you would like.

Denise Akayezu (01:19:04.448)
I don't really do online of much. have a LinkedIn profile where you can find me under my name, Denise Akayezu. I also have a Facebook account that I barely look at because I just don't know how to be online, honestly. I find it healthier to stay out of it. yeah, LinkedIn will be.

Jenn Quader (01:19:30.119)
I think that's very safe. an audience, you know, take a look at Denise Akayasu on her LinkedIn, because as she mentioned, she's not done growing yet. So she works for a beautiful company. She does beautiful things. And it sounds to us like there'll be more storytelling coming from her in the future. Denise, we would be honored to have you back any time to chat more about that other 98 % of your life. But beyond that, we just want to say thank you. And to all of our listeners, we want to say thank you.

Thank you for listening to today's show. If resiliency is something you're interested in, please like or subscribe to us wherever you're listening to us today. You can find us on YouTube, on Spotify, on Apple, on Amazon, anywhere you listen to podcasts. And this is the place to find stories, strategies, and inspiration on how to embrace change, overcome challenges, and redefine resilience in our rapidly changing world.

You can find me, connect with me anytime online at Jenn Quader J-E-N-N-Q-U-A-D-E-R or my company, thesmartagency.com. Our beautiful, illustrious, wonderful, brilliant co-host, Dr. Kelly Culver. Find her at culvergroup.ca, that is .ca for Canada, my friends, as you know, because she is a Canadian and the best of the Canadians, I always like to say. You can also find her on LinkedIn and Instagram. at Dr. Kelly Culver.

And my friends, thank you again. We wish you beauty, we wish you resilience, we wish you light, and we wish you all things positive. We hope you will join us again here on Resiliency, the podcast.