Resiliency The Podcast

Jenn Quader (00:05)
Welcome to Resiliency, the podcast. Today's guest is someone I admire tremendously. And I want to start off with a trigger warning for our listeners, because today our episode is going to contain discussion of sexual assault, workplace harassment, and personal trauma. Now these are very difficult and sensitive topics and they could be triggering for some listeners. Please take care of yourself while listening.

And if at any point you need to pause or step away, we encourage you to do so. And if you or anyone you know is in need of support, please reach out to a trusted friend, counselor, or a professional resource in your community. Now with that, I want to welcome today's guest. guys, she is an absolute powerhouse in business.

in advocacy, in truth telling, and frankly just in who she is. I love to watch her on social media with her career and her family. She has built a wildly successful career in commercial real estate, all while navigating something absolutely unthinkable, which is the personal trauma of sexual assault related to the workplace. And when she was faced with the choice between taking a settlement or putting her entire career and livelihood on the line,

She did something that most wouldn't dare to do. She told the truth. Her brave work went through the courts and up to lobbying Congress. And as a result, it helped to pass a law that is now her namesake called Carrie's Law, which ended the forced arbitration of sexual assault and sexual harassment cases. And what does that mean?

That means that victims of sexual assault and sexual harassment no longer are forced into arbitration with their employer, but have the choice to be able to tell their story. And what I admire most about today's guest is not the strength that it took to speak up and step this amazing way, but it's the quiet faith behind her fight, the way she kept showing up.

She kept taking the next step, even when the outcome was uncertain. And she did this not for recognition, but because she believed that other women deserved better. So on today's episode, we're going to talk about what it means to rebuild after trauma, how to find your footing when the ground has shifted, and why resilience sometimes looks less like a roar and more like a whisper that says, keep going. With that, please, I want you to welcome an honored

amazing brilliant guest, Miss Carrie Bob. Welcome.

Carrie Bobb (02:42)
Jen, my goodness, one, thank you for having me here. But I wish I could reach through and give you like the tightest hug. That intro is remarkable. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Jenn Quader (02:55)
I have to say you're remarkable. before Dr. Kelly jumps in, want to say before we jumped on, I need to tell our listeners, Carrie is a personal hero of mine. I've been building my career in the commercial real estate industry for about 15 years. And I have been watching Carrie from a human standpoint. And guys, she's just amazing. Dr. Kelly, take us away.

Dr Kelly Culver (03:13)
Well, Kerry, we are delighted to have you on as a guest. And I would say you're very honored guest on this podcast. So thank you for joining us from Nashville today. And I would like to ask you, you know, the same question we ask everyone else what does resiliency mean to you?

Carrie Bobb (03:24)
Thank you.

It means, mean, Jen, your intro was just so different than the way people have introduced me before with the resiliency being a whisper, And I think that's really true. It's what happens in those dark, quiet places when no one's watching and it's more of what's happening in your soul, in your spirit, than even like tactical or tangible things that you accomplish or you bounce back because a lot of people

bounce back and they accomplish things but they're still in turmoil in their soul because they've been hurt so badly that I think it's really really important to do the soul work and come back out at peace with who you are and accomplishing things and and standing standing on Carrie's law like having a law introduced by Congress was

a wonderful thing to stand on, right? And that was healing in itself. So those things matter too, but you can do a lot of things out of anger and accomplish to them and you're still tied up in knots inside. And so I think coming back with poise and grace and peace is really the heart of being resilient.

Dr Kelly Culver (04:46)
I'm struck with you talking about doing the soul work and coming back with poise and grace and peace because you're absolutely right. You've hit on something that I don't think we've talked a lot about is that people give us their definition of resilience. And I've studied resilience for a long time, but you've captured that gap.

And the gap is I may have achieved something. I may have come through something and gone on to achieve something. So I've come through this situation. I've got Carrie's Law. But if I don't do the inside work, I haven't actually.

built up that resilient fibre in my body, the soul work, and I think sometimes we, because it's behind the scenes, because it's invisible, if you will, we don't pay enough attention to it, and I don't think we talk enough about it. I'm so glad you said that. Thank you.

Carrie Bobb (05:44)
Yeah, I mean, it's so important. And I mean, I'm an Enneagram three. So like, so much of my identity is tied up in like, what my accomplishments are. And so those are, that's all important to right. And, and when I was trying to make my comeback or get back into the industry, I was so driven by I have to prove that I'm not broken and that I'm still good at what I do. And there was all these like weird things. And it was actually

when I was working with a media trainer she was having me tell my story over and over and she, you you have to go through all asking questions about your story and they're trying to trip you up. And so I'm telling my story over and over. was like one in the morning and West Hollywood and her apartment. And I can't even remember what I was talking about, but she said, you sound angry. And I like threw my notes down. I was like, I am angry.

I'm really angry." And she goes, no one's going to hear you if you're angry. You have to be able to tell your story like you can order a ham sandwich. So say it again. And I was driving home to San Diego after that media training being like, my gosh, I have to resolve that anger or no one will hear me. Then it doesn't even matter. You're not going to get to where you're trying to go. And that was a big, like, there were lots of light bulb moments and a lot of learning lessons, but that was a real significant.

one is people don't hear you when you're angry. And I went for a walk the next day and I remember thinking, does it matter if I get this bill passed and this passes, but I'm still angry? my answer was it matters. It really does.

Jenn Quader (07:24)
Yeah, because it's going to eat you and that it eats you from the inside. And I think this is such a cool conversation because what we're talking about is like intention and how when you come in with the intention of I'm going to kill him, you know, I'm going to knock him down. I'm going to get him. Even if you get what you want, the satisfaction is not there. And this is a really interesting when you look at it through the lens of resilience, because we talk a lot about

Carrie Bobb (07:27)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jenn Quader (07:52)
And I just texted Dr. Kelly this week. We talk a lot about pants of steel, like having to put on your pants of steel to be able to get up. And I can imagine you're going to go talk in front of Congress about something extremely personal and difficult that happened. And you have to put on those pants of steel. But see, this is the trick is that the steel can't, it has to be pliable. It has to move. have to walk in those pants. And so with anger, it's not pliable. You can't move through

like you said, it sticks in the craw and it'll eat you up. The other thing I wanna comment on is I think it's so interesting. You talked about it being tied to achievement and you were like, and you talked about, and this is such an interesting thing in my mind because not only did you go and stand in front of Congress and get a law pass that helped people of sexual assault, but then you rebuilt a career in the same industry. You did not run away and say, well, I'm gonna go do something else. You like stood up.

and you rebuilt that. And one thing that I noticed in that is that it really requires an ability to focus on your own self-worth outside of your achievements. I was doing some personal work in the last couple years and I started to notice, and the way I would describe it would be that my achievements in my life were intertwined with my self-worth in a way that I would say was kind of like cajone twins being born at birth. And one of them was kind of...

Carrie Bobb (09:13)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn Quader (09:15)
eating off the other one and was very sick and they needed to be separated and like plumped up healthily. with that vision in mind, your achievements are you got a law passed, You did something absolutely groundbreaking, but let's start with self-worth and value. Let's start with you in that room with this media trainer throwing your notes and saying, I am angry, who wouldn't be angry? You had something happen to you in the workplace that should never happen.

Tell us, how did you move through that? How did you turn your pants of steel into something porous, something that was strong enough to get the job done, but liquid or fluid enough that you could let that anger go?

Carrie Bobb (09:58)
so it all had to do with my faith. And there were a couple tipping points throughout the journey where I would double down on the double down. so I was a person of faith when I was hurt, when this happened. So it's not like I had to come to Jesus after I was hurt. Like I was in my faith. And so when I was hurt...

very early on, like I was sitting in the CVS parking lot to get my antibiotics for gonorrhea, syphilis, chlamydia, all this stuff, hepatitis, all this stuff. And I had these like horse pills sitting in front of me. And I was just sitting in my car going, it real? Is everything that I've believed. ⁓

up to this point, like real or is it all fake? And I sat there for a very long time and I decided I'm gonna double down and see if he shows up, if God is gonna show up for me because if it's not real, it doesn't matter. But if it is real, I cannot afford to walk away at this time. And so I just chose to say, okay, like, whatever you want, whatever you want, I'll do it. And so that was a really big tipping point. And then...

I definitely saw achievement and came from an angry place. Like, it was a journey through the process, right? And there have definitely been times where I took conversations from zero to 60 really intense, because that's where I was in the moment. And so I didn't do everything perfectly. But when I was going and meeting with Congress, and I hadn't talked about my story publicly at all, and I hardly even talked about it privately either, I didn't really even want to talk about it.

There was a verse that I clung to. It's the last verse of Psalm 90. And it just says, the favor of the Lord rest on the work of our hands. And that word favor can also be interpreted as loveliness. And so it was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't even want to be here. I don't even want to be doing this. Can you make it lovely, whatever this is?

And I prayed that every day. still pray that I had it out this morning before I started my day. Like, I don't know what I'm doing today. I don't know what's gonna fall apart, where I'm gonna get kicked in the teeth. I don't know what's gonna happen today. Can you just make something lovely out of this that I have today? And so that one little promise has carried me through a lot.

Jenn Quader (12:22)
That strikes me so that one little promise is so deep and so wide and also so small and so it takes us back to the intro which is resilience as a whisper. Resilience as something that goes because I've had a friend tell me before and it's true and actually you mentioned, Carrie mentioned before the interview she said we're sitting in our office it's within a big industrial facility and I would invite you to think if I'm in that big industrial facility and it's middle of the night and all the lights are off

Carrie Bobb (12:33)
Yes. ⁓

Jenn Quader (12:50)
and it's completely dark, but someone lights one tiny candle, where will all the eyes go? So I think there's so much power in what you're saying, Carrie, which is to say, yeah, you were angry, you were scared, and you didn't do everything right, just like any other human, but you stayed true to a small voice that said, look for the loveliness, open to the loveliness. And so through something,

just really, really disgusting. Truly. You were able to find, ⁓ I'd say, rays of light is what I'm hearing. I want to ask a little bit, I wonder if I can dive in and ask if you would talk a little bit about the law for our listeners. I know a lot about it. Dr. Kelly might have written about it or read about it, excuse me. But I wonder if you would tell us a little bit and Kelly, I'm jumping in and asking if that's all right. what is it?

Tell us about Carrie's law from your perspective and then how do you hope it is changing or will change corporate America?

Carrie Bobb (13:57)
Yeah, so I was 23 when I signed my employment contract and I was 39 when I was hurt and said I had been at CBRE for 16 years. So when I signed my employment contract, there was just a catch all arbitration clause in there. And what arbitration means is you are waiving your right to sue your employer and you are agreeing to confidentiality. So and

I didn't appreciate it at the time, but 60 million Americans had that in their employment contract. And so that means the company can harm you in any way and you have no grounds to sue them and you've already agreed to confidentiality. So I signed it at 23, fast forward 16 years later, I'm hurt in a very bad way and there is no way for me to even file.

So my case is not discoverable. So if someone wanted to look me up, it's only because I've spoken about it. And that's because I had to negotiate the right to talk about it. so we really don't have a great handle on how often this is happening in the workplace, but it's far more prevalent than I had any idea. So many people reach out with their stories.

but because it's bound by confidentiality or I mean, a lot of times the victims don't want to talk about it, right? Like you don't want to come forward. And so my hope was not that people could start suing their employers. I'm actually so far from being litigious. What I experienced through that case was...

I have more trauma from the legal dispute than I do from the actual assault because that was so terrible that I don't want anyone to go through that. My hope was that it gives potential victims a voice and it puts predators on notice that they're discoverable as well. Because what happened in my case was the person who hurt me, he...

left and went to another large firm and he got a very large signing bonus to go to that firm and he became chairman. He actually went to Newmark. Newmark handled it But they didn't know. They had no way of knowing because nothing was discoverable and they thought they were picking up a really big producer. Well, a dear, dear friend.

Jenn Quader (16:12)
you

Carrie Bobb (16:24)
She's a retail broker, but she's amazing. And so I had kind of told her what was going on and I was really nervous talking to Congress. just sick over the whole thing. I thought I couldn't make come back in commercial real estate. The whole me too thing was kind of taking a bad turn. And so I didn't know if I would even have a shot at coming back speaking out. one day called me and she said, the guy who hurt you is now at Newmark.

And Carrie, I have daughters. Like I have to, I have to say something. And the, the burden of knowing that because I was talking to one of my really good friends that I have now put a burden on her was really crazy because I, I told her, said, you got to be careful. If you go to HR, they might fire you. Like there's a chance that you could lose everything. And she was, I've got stock I can't afford to lose my job.

And so she thought about it for 24 hours and then she called. goes, I gotta do it. I have to make the call. And she made the call and within 48 hours he was gone. And so different companies respond different ways. And just last week got to thank the CEO of Newmark for how he handled that situation. It was so deeply personal to me and he didn't know me. He didn't know anything. And they responded that way.

Jenn Quader (17:30)
Wow.

Carrie Bobb (17:48)
that's what the law means is that the predators and the victims were held in confidentiality. And so it kind of just tries to flip it and prevent it from happening in the first place.

Jenn Quader (18:00)
Well, and I want to dive in just, there's so many things in my head, but the first is to talk about the integrity of companies. And I think it's very clear that just like people, some people have integrity and some don't, some companies have integrity and some don't. And so by breaking down this wall that says, hey, just under this little clause that again, you signed 16 years ago, that it's trapping you into those companies that don't have integrity. And forgive me, I'm just going to take a popular culture reference here, but I just.

Carrie Bobb (18:07)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn Quader (18:28)
I had a little cold when I got back from my conference this weekend. So I sat in bed and I watched Secession. And so anyone who's listened to Secession is going to understand that there is on the other side a room full of people whose family and whose livelihood relies on not being quote unquote taken down. And so they are fighting to hide the nasty stories. This is a real thing, this is where I think...

Carrie Bobb (18:49)
yeah.

Jenn Quader (18:52)
I go back to kind of resilience as a whisper and back your concept of resilience being something that you find within yourself so that put something to rest, but without having to take down the entire world. Cause you didn't need to take down the world. You were hurt by someone and that needed to be taken care of, but you did not then, as you said, go and want to take down all of commercial real estate. You just want people

Carrie Bobb (19:18)
I wanted to

early on. Like I was ready to like torch the place, which I'm sure a lot of people are. But that's what being resilient means is you've got to like wrestle with your own stuff because like that's all valid to feel that way. But I don't think I would have had as successful of a comeback if I was coming back in a very angry tone. I don't think I would have been as welcomed.

Dr Kelly Culver (19:23)
yeah.

Carrie Bobb (19:45)
And so that was a very intentional thing after my media trainer and I worked through that. was just like, I've got to figure that out because I won't be able to come back this way. it is really hard to come back from such a public thing like that.

Jenn Quader (20:01)
Mind-blowing. I want to throw to Dr. Kelly in case she has thoughts. Dr. Kelly, what thoughts might you have? What questions do you have boiling? Because me and Carrie are just blah, blah, blah. But it's so, it's important and it's exciting and it's interesting because we're through it. And you know what I mean? You're through it and now you're walking something that's really moving people and that's really helping. Dr. Kelly, what's on your mind?

Carrie Bobb (20:10)
Yeah.

Dr Kelly Culver (20:22)
want to come back to the concept of speaking up about trauma. Because you've said that a couple of times, and the thing that I noted is that you negotiated, you had to negotiate the right to talk about your trauma.

which is a bit of an oxymoron in society because we all want to know about everybody's trauma. That's the sexy stuff. But you had to negotiate the right to talk about your trauma, to bring things out into the light so that you could take action, so that you could change your world, your industry, the world, the industry, different industries. And you talked about trauma from your legal dispute. But I'm...

I'm interested in hearing, and maybe you can expand on this for our listeners, speaking about trauma often requires revisiting painful memories. Sometimes you want to keep those things locked. So how do you balance that? How do you balance protecting the healing that you've come through very successfully still using your voice to negotiate the right to talk?

Carrie Bobb (21:25)
That's such a good question because it comes up at times when I don't expect it. And so it's been seven and a half years now. And just last week, I had conversation I was in a negotiation that was very triggering to me and I had physical...

responses to it. at first I was like, what's going on? Like I had a migraine, I actually was vomiting all sorts of crazy stuff. And it took me a minute to be like, my gosh, because the negotiations were not near as intense as when I had been going through my case.

But there were some similarities, nothing remotely close. But your body remembers. And I hadn't had this happen in five years, six years. And there's a book called The Body Keeps Score. I don't know if you've read it, but I couldn't even read the whole thing because it was like too much. It was like so on the nose that it was like, my gosh, I got to set this down. But your body remembers. And I think like I just had this kick of adrenaline, like my body was ready to

like fight for my life when I wasn't even in that kind of situation, but I just kind of remembered that. And so I've been revisiting it just over this past weekend of like, how do you like reset? Because it hits you when you don't expect it. I definitely treated myself like an outpatient.

with therapy right after I was hurt, like I was going every day to see somebody and then I can't remember after how long I'd go four days a week and then three days a week and things like that. And then I was just talking to one of my friends this weekend asking about EMDR therapy because I've never done it but I've heard really great things about it. But I was like I'm still having stuff come up. So it's something you have to deal with. I thought I was good.

I'm not, you we all, we all work through it and there's different kinds, right? Like that was just the legal aspect of it. But after I was hurt, I had a hard time just being touched, like even for my kids, not wanting to even hold my kids and stuff like that. And so you have to like work your brain through it. It's, it's, it's hard work and it's not fun sometimes. Yeah.

Dr Kelly Culver (23:39)
It's really hard work. No, and some

people don't understand the concept of your body remembers what the mind chooses to forget. And it does it all the time. And it takes you on that journey. And it could be something that happened 20 years ago, and all of a sudden on a particular day you feel something, and you say, well, why is this happening to me? And you look at the calendar and you say, this is a day where something happened there, and I thought I was past it. I thought I had come through it.

but your body remembers what the mind chooses to forget so that you can go on.

Jenn Quader (24:15)
the time. wake up and you feel sad and then you realize someone passed away or something difficult happened. I also am struck by, I thought I was over it. I'm really struck by that because I think that so much. I constantly am like, I'm done with that, right? I already experienced that once. And I find that such a...

Carrie Bobb (24:34)
I know.

Jenn Quader (24:36)
Like there's such a fascinating thing in the circularity of life, because we think we're done. you know, we did it. I got a law passed. I should be over that. But the body is a physical thing. I want to jump in real quick and ask Carrie, because I like to try to give a little actionable things to our listeners. When you're in a negotiation and, you know, in your current job,

Carrie Bobb (24:37)
You

Jenn Quader (25:00)
and your body begins to have that. mean, you literally mentioned you were having migraines and vomiting, that your body is like reliving this trauma. do you have tricks or tips? What are you doing in your daily life that you go to to calm the body?

Carrie Bobb (25:17)
So that was all like a ramification. Like I left the meeting and everything and started to get a headache. So that all came like after and I wasn't expecting it because it was such an extreme reaction to a meeting that wasn't, that didn't warrant that kind of reaction, if that makes sense. ⁓ I do read my Bible and have like time where I center myself every day. And I feel like having that North Star, that was so important to me.

Jenn Quader (25:34)
⁓ huh.

Carrie Bobb (25:45)
during my case when I felt like I was fighting for my life, I was fighting for the quality of my life, right? And so I had to keep coming back and being like, and not to be over spiritual or like over faith driven, this is just how it was for me, but it was like, you say in your word that you're going to do this. So I am walking ahead assuming that you're going and I'm just going to believe that you're going to do it. And he did. Like I am.

I am living proof that miracles still happen and that God shows up because there's no way that I myself am capable of doing what happened with the bill and the legislation and all of that. So I believe that miracles still happen, but I feel like it is a daily battle to re-center. And I think, you know, it's interesting talking about those moments of trauma when we're all laying on the bathroom floor.

in fetal position because it's so hard. Nobody sees those moments. We have to create those moments in private too, where you're at peace and at center and rebuilding. Nobody sees those either. ⁓ And so don't let the pain steal those private gems, right? Where we start to get hold too, because I think a lot of times, and I've done this too with trauma, you try to stay busy so you don't have to deal with it.

but you have to have those moments of quiet so you can make that pain pay. Because it does owe you for what it's stolen, but you have to sit in it and get it back. And there's a...

Dr Kelly Culver (27:22)
that

grief through action sorry that I interrupted you what you've just you know grief through action we get stuck in that mode

Carrie Bobb (27:26)
Yeah, no, you're okay.

Cuz it's so hard and nobody wants, you don't wanna sit in it. And there were many times throughout my case where I just had to hold the line and wait for things to play out and all I had to do was sit there.

But you don't want to, you want to be like, want to get this over with, let's get out. And there's another verse in Isaiah that says, ⁓ there are treasures are found in secret places or dark places. And so when we're going through those dark places, there's treasures there too. And even though it's dark and scary and you don't want to sit in it, don't try to go through it so fast that you miss all the treasures that are in there for you to pick up, you know?

Jenn Quader (28:15)
I'm very attracted to that It's something that if, I'm trying to think of how to say it, but if someone told me about it, I wouldn't want to hear it, but because I've listened to it, do, you know, which is to say within pain lies all of our growth. It lies all of our opportunity. And I heard you say you have to find those moments of quiet in order to make that pain pay. And I really think that's such an interesting,

Carrie Bobb (28:23)
Right.

Yeah.

Jenn Quader (28:42)
It's an interesting way of thinking about it because again, ⁓ I've heard and it has been said to me, avoid a victim mentality. And this is very difficult when someone has been hurt because they actually are a victim, right? But a victim mentality would say, I will sit in the pain, I will nurture the pain, I will hold the pain forever. But the opposite of that mentality is I will find those moments of quiet and I will make that pain pay. I will, as you said,

Carrie Bobb (28:54)
Right.

Jenn Quader (29:10)
find the treasures within the pain. And so you are, and I'm gonna call back to a prior episode of Resiliency, the podcast, we were interviewing a wonderful gentleman who had worked with, you know, at the very high levels of Apple and their operational, you know, worked alongside Steve Jobs and all the rest and Tim Cook. And we asked him like, how do you see resilience? Well, actually, I think we asked him, what would you tell your daughter if your daughter was asking like how to be resilient? Yeah, right? Like how do you get it there?

Carrie Bobb (29:37)
I love that.

Jenn Quader (29:40)
And he said, I would tell her, look through the mountain. Look through the mountain. And so what I see and what you're saying is that the pain is the mountain. And you're saying, don't just sit on the mountain. Don't just beat on the mountain. Look through it. how do you move through that pain?

and find those valuable nuggets in yourself. And then the last thing I want to bring up for our listeners, because I think it's really important, is that what I heard you also say, Carrie Bob, my dear sweet love, is that you took care of yourself. And that is so important. And I don't know that we are taught that in society enough. I think in society, we are sometimes taught to look for people who can take care of us. there are lots of people, community is very important. But I heard you say, I took care of myself.

You sat in a CVS parking lot and took medicine that had to be taken. You went to a therapist every day. To me, this is part of what makes you a personal champion for me, honestly, in a very real way, because this is something that could break so many people. You went to do a job. You went to a conference. You never would, you know, you'd been with the company for 16 years.

And when this happens, you did not get mad at yourself and say, what did I wear that invited that? What did I do? No, that's bullshit. That's what that is. You took care of yourself. You saw the human value. And I think there is such a core of resilience in that. It is a self-love that is not talked about enough. It's extremely, extremely important. I want to throw to Dr. Kelly, who is our queen of definition of resilience and ask, what do you pick out of that?

from an academic standpoint, a philosophical standpoint as someone who has studied resilience.

Carrie Bobb (31:24)
Okay,

Mike, is we're gonna be here?

Dr Kelly Culver (31:25)
Well, what I think is very interesting is that I've listened to Carrie describe her journey from one persona to another. You have gone from being a warrior, because you had to be, to looking at wisdom in different places, and now you're sitting in this stillness, and you are a sage.

Carrie Bobb (31:31)
It's dope.

There we go.

Dr Kelly Culver (31:51)
And that's an evolution of the spirit. It's an evolution of the person to be able to go from warrior and say, okay, I can put her to bed now. And the sovereign sage that I now am can come out and live this life.

Jenn Quader (32:07)
And I'm going to bring it to a scriptural reference since, Carrie, you've brought in some really beautiful scriptures today. I believe that Jesus has told his followers to be strong like an eagle and gentle like a dove. And I think that that is what we're talking about here. You have to be strong like an eagle. You have to be able to go in there and do what you needed to do. Carrie, you had to face Congress. You took down a law that, as you said, affected

you know, hundreds of thousands of people in employment agreements. And you stood up for something right, but then you also had to be so gentle with yourself, with your family. you had repercussions of that hurt that you had to work through. I want to jump to the future and I want to ask, as you look ahead,

Carrie Bobb (32:39)
you.

Jenn Quader (32:58)
How do you hope that this work you've done, this quiet work you've done in yourself, and then this career work that you've done, both in commercial real estate and across advocacy, how do you hope it's going to inspire people to create safer and more compassionate workspaces?

Carrie Bobb (33:15)
I hope it does a couple things. I hope it causes people in high levels of companies to take these cases a lot more seriously because I think they do and they kind of go through the playbook and they have their routine of what happens when things like this happen. But I think now that

there's no confidentiality, they know that if they keep a bad actor in a company, they are then liable if it happens again. Like the company themselves are now liable because they had prior knowledge. And so it puts a higher price tag on companies if they don't weed out predators. And so for that, I hope that it causes it from happening in the first place because they're

there's legal things that they need to do with these people. And then I hope it also helps people understand how to protect themselves. Like one of the biggest things I've learned through this whole thing is that when you go to places or events or you're at a workplace event to just have a buddy system, like have someone with you all the time.

I've had so many women tell me that they were drugged at a workplace event, but because they had a girlfriend with them or another friend with them, they got them out of the situation. And so I think twofold, right? It's just making sure that keeping the bar high you treat people in the workplace and then awareness.

Jenn Quader (34:49)
I think that's a, it makes me want to ask, and I just want to get real personal for a minute. We can cut this out if we need to, but like, I kind of want to ask you too about that culture. Again, we work in like high level commercial real estate. People are trading high portfolios. You've got pension funds invested. There's a lot of pressure in this, but what I notice, and I assume this is across other industries. Dr. Kelly works across international politics and countries, but I noticed that in certain situations, the vibe is like, let's all go out and get as wasted as possible.

Carrie Bobb (34:53)
Yeah.

Jenn Quader (35:19)
Like, you know, let's go out and use as many drugs, do as much as we can. And so without wanting to be a prude, because I'm not a prude, I'm fun. I like to have a good time. But like, how do we change that culture? Or is it changeable? What do you do beyond having a buddy to be able to say, yeah, I do good business, but I'm also not going to like throw it all back and do cocaine with you? know, like how do we find a line within today's business world? I would invite that.

both from Carrie and from Dr. Kelly.

Carrie Bobb (35:50)
Dr. Kelly, I'm curious what you're going to say.

Dr Kelly Culver (35:53)
Well, that's a tough one for me to answer because in the sectors that I work, we don't do that. So in government, elite institutions like ⁓ UN and places like that, that's not how we work. It's not acceptable.

⁓ I'm in France. That is not the workplace culture in France. I'm sometimes in London. One could argue that the pub culture could lead to something like that. I've just come back from Dubai. It's very much like that there. But I think it depends on the sector, if you will, and that's not to be judgmental. I'm just saying in my experience in this particular line that I'm in, you can't do that because

the public sees what you're doing and they judge you accordingly, you could lose your election. So I'm not much help on that answer, I'm sorry.

Carrie Bobb (36:47)
No,

I think that is the answer. I think sobriety is the answer, unfortunately. I I was 39 years old at a white tablecloth dinner. It's not like I was in my 20s at a club or something like that. So it's so prevalent that the only way to really ward against it is sobriety.

And it happens to both men and women. it's not like women shouldn't drink at these events. It's not a gender thing at all. If you want to be safe and I think also if you want to be taken seriously in your job, sobriety doesn't hurt. And no one is like getting promoted or getting a raise or making a difference in their career because they're drinking a ton at a cocktail party.

Jenn Quader (37:41)
If you can't see me, I'm giving her big applause, applause, because this is, and this is what we all need to hear, okay? This is what needs to be said because it is so, first of all, Dr. Kelly, you're making me want to go into the public sector, because I appreciate that. But more than that, I think this is, ⁓ I'll tell a very quick story if I can. I'd just like to deviate for a minute, but I was very young little PR pup. I had gotten my first job at my global public relations agency and I was invited.

Carrie Bobb (37:42)
You

Dr Kelly Culver (37:43)
Amen. Amen to that.

Carrie Bobb (37:57)
You

Jenn Quader (38:11)
to the Clio Awards, which is this advertising awards. It's no big deal for those in ad, but to me, it was this very big deal. And I was going out for the first time with my client and ⁓ my client was a big drinker. And I thought it was my job to drink with her. That is what I thought. And I, you guys, I've never ended up so drunk in my entire life.

and what I realized in that moment as I stumbled to my hotel room very fortunately by myself, I realized like, no, no, no, this is not how it can work. And so I think that young people and people growing their careers need to hear this, because there is always going to be the person who is saying, come on, man, have a good time. How am I gonna know you if you don't throw this back? And it's interesting, I was just at a conference last week with a gentleman who's my age.

And he said, you know, I've stopped drinking because I don't like the way it feels. I said, me too. How do you handle it at these conferences when people are trying to make you go, go, go? And we were laughing about it. And I said, I think I'm going to start telling people, I just value my body more highly than you do.

Carrie Bobb (39:07)
It's a train.

You

You

Jenn Quader (39:18)
point, Carrie, which is to say, not only is it a safety precaution, it's a professionalism precaution. And what I hear is we have Dr. Kelly Culver's gold stamp buy-in on, when you're out, if they're offering you a drink, grab a sparkling water, stay in the conversation, listen carefully, but do not feel pressure to take part in that type of party culture as some sort of badge of honor. All it does is put you in a position where you could be hurt.

and that's just not what is needed for this world. That's what I take from that.

Carrie Bobb (39:51)
Look, I used to drink a lot when I was younger and now that I'm at cocktail parties not drinking, no one has made me feel bad or stupid or anything. If anything, it's the other way. They have so much respect and there are so many people being like, tell me about your sobriety journey or tell me how you got there, whatever. And so it's not near as big of a deal as I think people think it is. And even if you're not sober, you just don't drink at work events, I think it's better for your career.

your safety and all.

Jenn Quader (40:23)
I'm so glad we got into this. Thank you. This is such a real life application of it. And I think it can be so helpful because I do think there's so many people who don't understand this. And I also think that there are others who use that as a manipulative tool, whether they intend to hurt you or not. They use it as a tool to manipulate. And so we can guard ourselves and stay closer to our own inner peace by keeping ourselves in our right mind. Really beautiful.

Carrie Bobb (40:25)
Me too!

I mean,

if someone says you need to be drinking with us and going out with us to get our business, you don't want their business anyway. Yeah.

Dr Kelly Culver (40:55)
No, no. And

you have that choice. That's the thing that people forget. We have agency. We have that choice, you know. So it's like, well, I guess I'm not going to do business with you. I'll stop. Easy.

Carrie Bobb (41:00)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jenn Quader (41:09)
Yeah,

and trust that the next business will come and it'll be right for you. this is also good. Yeah.

Dr Kelly Culver (41:15)
and it will come. It will come. It

always does. The universe is very gentle.

Carrie Bobb (41:20)
It does.

Jenn Quader (41:21)
It does.

It is gentle. As tough as it is, it is gentle in its recovery. All right, we're gonna get into our most favorite part of Resiliency, the podcast, which is our rapid fire questions. ⁓ I'm gonna throw it over to Dr. Kelly.

Dr Kelly Culver (41:32)
Ha

Carrie Bobb (41:36)
Let's do it.

Dr Kelly Culver (41:39)
All right, okay, Carrie, what is your favorite movie or TV show that makes you feel resilient?

Carrie Bobb (41:46)
Ooh, ⁓

Okay, my favorite TV show, I don't know about making me feel resilient, but like if I'm just trying to like calm down as I watch Seinfeld all the time. But as far as like resilient movies or movies that like, I love like a league of their own or sports, like women's sports movies. I love that. Or even just underdog sports movies. It doesn't have to be female based, but like I love that.

Jenn Quader (41:58)
Yes!

Dr Kelly Culver (42:07)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn Quader (42:15)
I love A League of Their Own. That's one of my favorite movies. Good Madonna, right? Come on.

Dr Kelly Culver (42:17)
Yeah, yeah,

Carrie Bobb (42:18)
I know, and the sisters

Dr Kelly Culver (42:19)
yeah, yeah.

Carrie Bobb (42:21)
story, I love that.

Jenn Quader (42:23)
Love it.

Dr Kelly Culver (42:24)
What about a song that makes you feel resilient?

Carrie Bobb (42:28)
For a long time, I listened to Sara Bareilles' Brave all the time. And like whenever I would speak or anything, that was always kind of like my walk-on song because just do it. And like I was so scared throughout my whole journey that I felt like...

Dr Kelly Culver (42:33)
⁓ yeah. OK.

Carrie Bobb (42:47)
When I look back at that version of myself, I was fighting for sure. And I definitely had that warrior mindset, but I also had that mindset of I would roll my eyes and just take the next step. Like, OK, fine, I'll do this next thing. I don't really want to do it, but OK, fine. And I did that 100 times. It wasn't like I was charging a hill. And so I loved Sarah Borellis because I just felt like

Just don't wait too long to be brave. Like for women who are in the thick of it right now, whether it's like with their kids or their marriage or their job or whatever it is, just be brave right now. Even if you have to roll your eyes and go, okay, fine, I'm gonna do it. Just do it.

Dr Kelly Culver (43:30)
I think that's a really, really great lesson. Yep, yep. What's the last thing that made you laugh out loud? Like really laugh.

Jenn Quader (43:31)
love that. Don't wait too long to be brave.

Carrie Bobb (43:33)
Yeah.

I know I have, and I think it was one of the things that my kids said, but I can't remember what it was or what one of them did. I have? Okay.

Dr Kelly Culver (43:50)
but that's good. I know I have left. That's perfect. That is perfect. That is the perfect

answer. I know I have. It's just not coming to me right now. I love it. That's the best answer. The best answer ever.

Jenn Quader (43:57)
It keeps us going.

Carrie Bobb (43:59)
you

That's right. ⁓

Jenn Quader (44:03)
That's perfect. I agree.

Carrie Bobb (44:06)
Well, you're very generous, but thank you.

Dr Kelly Culver (44:08)
⁓

so now we're out. No, no, no.

Jenn Quader (44:12)
I would, ⁓ go ahead, sorry, Kelly. I was just gonna

comment and say it really matches everything, Kerry, because what you're kind of saying in that is, hey, look, it's like everything else. I take a step, I take a step, I laugh, I let it go, I keep moving. And so, no, I'm not holding onto it. I keep stepping and keep moving. So I love it. Sorry, Dr. K.

Carrie Bobb (44:30)
I will say one

of the things that's happened when you go through anything that's like super difficult is that because of the soul work, right, I don't get as rattled as much when stuff happens because it's like, I've been through harder. Fine.

Dr Kelly Culver (44:40)
you

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jenn Quader (44:47)
Bring it on.

Carrie Bobb (44:47)
Yeah,

okay. Yeah. We'll get through it. That's fine. Yeah.

Dr Kelly Culver (44:51)
Next. Yeah, I appreciate it.

Jenn Quader (44:52)
Hahaha!

Dr Kelly Culver (44:56)
Okay, I'm going ask you maybe a bit of a tough question and put your thinking cap on. What is a question you would like to leave for future guests?

Carrie Bobb (45:07)
I love the question, how did you do it? How did you pull yourself out? What do you do when no one's watching? How are you caring for yourself? How do you get through that dark place when you can't see the next step in front of you? I know those are like 10 different questions, those are on the forefront of my mind whenever I meet somebody who did something really gnarly hard.

Like it's those times that no one knows about what did you do and what happened in those times when you were curled up on the floor? How did you get yourself back up?

Jenn Quader (45:44)
And that's a wildly important question. Me too.

Dr Kelly Culver (45:44)
like that when you were curled up on the

floor. Yeah.

Jenn Quader (45:49)
Yeah, we all need that

because everybody has had those moments and I think it's brilliant. And honestly, it seems that you are well aligned with our guest base here at Resiliency to Podcast because I now have a question for you that was left from a past guest and it's very similar to a question you left with us, but I think it's going to really hit exactly what we've talked about throughout this episode. That question is this, Carrie, what keeps you doing the right thing when no one is watching?

Carrie Bobb (45:52)
Yeah.

It's both, I would say, my faith and my family, which those sound like such cliched answers, but I look at it very differently now that I'm a little bit older, is that we make ourselves up all the time. Like we're constantly reinventing ourselves and I'm not the same person that I was five years ago. And so it's like, who do I want to be now? And who do I want to be for my kids? And who was I created to be? And like, how do I step, step into that?

And so that all kind of goes back to everything we've talked about is just having those quiet morning sessions to make sure that I'm stay aligned. And some days I do it and some days I'm way off kilter, but keep coming that consistency of coming back. And then I feel like the next generation has so many more hurdles with all the technology and things like that, that really making sure that I'm equipping my kids to be resilient and overcome adversity.

just being the person that they need me to be.

Jenn Quader (47:21)
Carrie Bobb, you are an inspiration and I think you have proven that you are being a person that a lot of people need you to be and being a person that is a light to so many others. I'm so grateful that you came on and shared your story with us. You have sound advice, sound wisdom, and then just a beautiful soul. And I really think that our listeners will really benefit. I want to invite you, for those who are listening, who would like to continue to follow Carrie,

continue to learn about her journey and watch her work, is beautiful to watch. Where can people find you online, Carrie?

Carrie Bobb (47:54)
just at Carrie Bob C-A-R-R-I-E B-O-B-B that's Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter X. Yep, that's where I am.

Jenn Quader (48:04)
Fantastic.

Guys, follow Carrie, follow her work. Again, she's doing beautiful things across commercial real estate and she will inspire you. And with that, I want to say thank you for listening. Thank you for being here. Resiliency the Podcast is a community that we come together and we share ideas for resilience. We embrace change, we overcome challenges, and we look at how to redefine resilience in this ever evolving world.

I want to let you know that this will be the last episode of 2025. So Carrie, Bob, you have given us the most amazing finale. We give you a cheers to that. And we want to invite you to keep looking for us in 2026. We are going to continue to tell these stories, these stories that really move the heart. These are the daily bread of resilience and we want to have you as a part of it. So if you're listening today, please subscribe where you are, continue to follow us and

We wish you resilience and we wish you a soulful connection and a beautiful, beautiful holiday season. Thank you to the Resiliency the Podcast community and thank you Dr. Kelly Culver and Carrie Bob.